Teacher Protest In Glen Ridge

...and the sticking point is?

But the color red sure is nice.

The sticking point is money. The district is prevented by state law from going above a 4% increase in expenditures. To a lesser extent, benefits enter into the picture as well, but overall it is about money.
These things usually are.

Ha - as if I even had a contract!

In my company, 2-3% is a typical yearly increase and I can assure you what we have to pay out of our own pockets for our benefits and they increase way more than that measley raise.

Pension? Pension? WTF is that! The only thing you are guaranteed is that you better look after your own old butt.

I work 60+ hour weeks and just because you are "on vacation" does not mean your laptop isn't with you on island.

Wanna trade? Lasy night I wasn't home from work in time to strike on a corner.

as a mentor once said to me, ackme,

"But this is the life you have chosen".

So the teachers want to have some other area cut so they can get an increase? (since the total budget can't increase by more than 4%)

But what is this 4% law? Didn't Montclair's BOE budget go up 7% last time?

*Lasy night - bizarre typo.

Anyway, the grass is always greener, just be happy you have a job so you can pay your taxes.

Don't these teachers understand that the fund that will pay for their desired increase have been allocated for TURF ON HURRELL. We have to set priorities....SORRY!!!!

I suppose if this story were on NPR the lede would be;

"Glen Ridge won't pay teachers the going rate, is it possible to place a value on a child's education?"

Settle now... pretty funny these signs.

Doesn't it take two parties to work together to achieve a compromise in order to settle a dispute. I believe the town is giving 3%, the teachers want 4%, so let's settle at 3.5%.

Problem solved

Don't get me wrong, I actually wouldn't trade mine in.

They could develop an underground railroad of cupcake sales to students to increase their earnings under the table.

Unfortunately the life I really chose didn't work out, Colin Firth married someone else and Leona Helmsley left her fortune to her dog...

NJ state law prohibits increases of greater than 4% on the property tax levy, though there can be exceptions. School districts are permitted a base growth increase of 2.5%, or CPI, whicever is greater. Not only schools, but fire departments and municipal departments are affected as well.

I am certain that anyone proposing to "trade" would run screaming from the school after lunchtime. This whole business about teachers being overpaid is a scream. If you just babysat those kids -- made sure they didn't jump out of the window, and provided no instruction whatsoever, and you charged the going rate of $10 an hour, per kid. Let's assume a class of 22 kids. That's $220 per class. Teachers teach 5 classes a day. That's $1100 a day. The school year is 184 days. That's an annual salary of over $200,000. Overpaid my culo!
I don't know what NPR would say, but I sat in a room ( a large one)with George W. Bush when he told a group of teachers (one of whom was his wife) that they were the most underpaid professionals in America.
The annual carping about imaginary riches flowing to lazy teachers has grown beyond tiresome.

Until these teachers work in the private sector they can cry me a river down bloomfield ave.

wow! Did I say all that?

Don't blame them for getting what they get which is very little. Join them, learn, and then get it for yourself.

They get very little you say? Last I checked private sector didn't offer lifetime healthcare and benefits, tenure, limited work hours, etc..

Unless you are a teacher or in a union, i think anyone would agree with me. If i want dental I pay into it; if they want dental they strike for it and we pay the higher taxes to get them dental.

Maybe we'd be a little more open to our teachers "problems" if they also were teaching our kinds subjects, rather than social educating them (which should be left up to the parent).

If you don't like the slaray and lifetime benefits then maybe these teachers should consider joining us, but that won't happen cause you don't get 2 periods of free time.

"Join them," laserboy? You of all people NEED their efforts. In your case, it should be "Go back to school to learn from them." You might even start with remedial reading in your particular case.

Teachers are hardly overpaid, they certainly do deserve more (though I in turn might then want to insure that they're much better educated and trained than they sometimes seem to be today). Would anyone want mikey in his/her class for any amount of money?

ackme, I think there are 2-3 other acting male Firths still available (though I have no idea if they're even related). Peter, for example.

Very few, if any, districts offer "free dental". Teacehrs pay into those plans. Many districts cover just the teacher in terms of medical, with family coverage requiring contributions from the employee. As contracts are renegotiated, this becomes more and more the norm. Limited work hours is nonsense. Work begins before the first bell, continues after the bell, and involves many nights and weekend as well. Hardly salt mine conditions, but far from the life of Riley you depict. Lifetime benefits kick in after 25 years employment. Rather than bemoan the fact that teachers get this, you'd be wiser to ask why everyone doesn't. (Oh boy. I hear the stirring from the socialized med system, Hillary hating posse).Pensions do exist elsewhere in the world, you know. People work for a lifetime and they get a pension. It used to happen here as well. "Free time" consists of a 30 minute lunch, a planning period for working on plans, grading papers, etc., or team meetings. There is a duty period as well -- something real nice like lunchroom or hallway monitor. Sometimes, everyone gets together and figures out the best way to "social educate" their students.
I will agree, however, that the teachers who "educated" you were grossly overpaid.

My feeling is, having two girls getting ready to enter the Glen Ridge school district, why not make the teachers happy? Families of Glen Ridge do absolutely everything else for their kids. For some reason, you guys are picking apart compensation packages for these guys, as if you have an ability to wiegh what each teacher really wants. Pathetic. I work in the financial area, and we get 10% a year minimum. We just sit at our desks and do basic stuff and BAM - 10%, maybe more. And the twon is complaining about 4%? In a wealthy town like ours?

I guess there is always one thing New Jerseyans want more than 'everything'...'everything, for free'. Give them their 4% so that the great staff we have now will be there for my two girls.

Support the teachers. Support the students. Support the union. Support pensions, good salaries, and proper health care. Get some for yourself.

Your salary doubles every 7 years?

Smoke 'em while you got 'em!

Right on Mikey!

Stick it to those bastards that pay the teacher's salary and benefits.

(whoever the hell they are.)

I agree with you, cromagnonman, but you haven't mentioned tenure. I would vote in an instant for across-the-board pay rises for all teachers in exchange for abolishing tenure. That it's as difficult as it is to sack a lousy teacher is very bad.

Support the teachers. Support the students. Support the union. Support pensions, good salaries, and proper health care. Get some for yourself.

Way to make the tough choices, laserdoodle. If I were ROC, I'd say something like "this could be the liberal anthem!" but alas, I am not ROC.

You raise a good point. Nothing is more frustrating than having to deal with a dud who is protected by tenure. I would argue that this is not common, and a good administrator can often find creative ways to make such a person move on. There are also many examples of good teachers dumped during the years before tenure simply because someone didn't like them. It cuts both ways.
NJ did away with tenure for superintendents over 10 years ago. The result has been a revolving door for these positions, with the average supe serving less than 2 years in the post. This has created a seller's market for them, driving up the cost of their hires as they shop around for the best deal, and it has negatively affected districts as they grapple with a new boss every year or so. Long term, effective leadership is a key component of success.

the liberal anthem.

(sound)

god, i love the barista message boards! especially when the loudest complainers about paying educators can't even spell. good to see some logical thought and use of facts, croiagusanam.

"The result has been a revolving door for these positions, with the average supe serving less than 2 years in the post. This has created a seller's market for them, driving up the cost of their hires as they shop around for the best deal, and it has negatively affected districts as they grapple with a new boss every year or so."

Which would be the "natural" way to get a raise, supply, demand and merit. Were the teachers to do the same they might also make more. Well, the good ones anyway, the ones in "demand".

Sort of argues in favor of doing away with tenure, no?

fru fru, spelling along with proper capitalization are important!

You have to look at the benefits and fringe costs. They have to be factored into the salary.

Thank you, ROC. This is really a work of genius. Whatever happened to Lehrer? Went back to teaching math, I guess.

Congrats, lasermikey, for today I hereby crown you "King of the Non-Sequitur", because nothing you have posted above makes any damn sense.

"Get some for yourself"? Serious, WTF are you talking about?

I can imagine you driving around with a bumper sticker on your car: "SUPPORT EVERYONE!! GET SOME FOR YOURSELF!! ASK ME HOW!!"

Oy!

I think you're amking quite an assumption if you feel that the negotiations for superintendents involve ones with "merit". Who determines that?
Ditto with teachers. Who determines merit? What criteria are used? Should teachers in low-performing districts be paid less because those kids don't do well, or more because no one else will go there?
If the law of supply and demand drove teacher salaries, they'd be considerably higher. There are shortages across the country, particularly in urban areas and isolated rural areas, and everywhere in key content areas like math, science, and special ed. If it is such a cush job, whu aren't people beating down the doors to get in?

Oh, but I do love this quote from one of the protesters:

says English teacher JD Ruffilo, "We're hoping to settle, but settle for fair and competitive terms."

As if the NJEA would ever abide anything resembling "competition".

As if.

ROC, spelling along with proper capitalization IS important.

"There are shortages across the country, particularly in urban areas and isolated rural areas, and everywhere in key content areas like math, science, and special ed. If it is such a cush job, whu aren't people beating down the doors to get in?"

Perhaps in part because of artifical price controls as a result of tenure.

Price controls, unions, gauarnteed job security, government burearacracy, lack of merit raises are harbingers of mediocrity. We should not be surprised schools (on balance) don't do well and teachers are unhappy.

(I am not saying any of these particular teachers are bad, I have no idea.)

Just think in just a few short years (when the medical profession has been consumed by the government) we'll have doctors standing on the street unhappy with their mediocre pay. Then (oh happy day) our medical system will perform as well as our schools as an institution!

Who determines merit? What criteria are used?

Determining merit is hard, but how does tenure address this problem? By making merit irrelevant.

Should teachers in low-performing districts be paid less because those kids don't do well, or more because no one else will go there?

Again, what does this have to do with tenure? Tenured teachers can shop for better jobs now. The ones who don't are either satisfied or hanging on until retirement.

ROC, to not negotiate as a group for your own personal benefit is stupid. You have to protect your own interests.

The premise in several of these posts seems to be that schools are not good, that students are not being properly educated. I disagree. Some schools -- too many, to be sure -- are not doing the job for their students. However, a great many are, and GR's fall into this latter category. As someone who grew up "somewhere else", I can tell you that the American system is envied by most of the world. No other country anywhere makes a commitment to educate each and every child and to prepare them for higher education. They do not all succeed, but students here have opportunities enjoyed nowhere else.
Unions are harbingers of mediocrity? What nonsense. Unions exist because not so long ago there were things like 6 day work weeks, 12 hour days, dangerous working conditions, and child labor. The sort of workers paradise that exists in those union-hating places like, oh let's say, China. Tenure exists because local honchos ousted people whose opinions they disliked or who stood in the way of their niece Emma getting a gig. I agree that the tenure system has many flaws, but it came about in response to abuses. Looking at the top economies in the world -- US, UK, Japan, France, et al -- they are all places where unions exist and where government bureaucracy (read, protections for workers) are in place. They are hardly bastions of mediocrity. Better we should have those union-free and non-regulated Edens like the Philipines or perhaps Bangladesh?
Tenure does not make merit irrelevant. In theorym, and more often than not, merit leads to tenure. Some do slack off after getting there. That happens everywhere -- the difference is that anywhere else, people can be canned. As I said earlier, good administrators can do a lot to get dead wood hewn.
I just keep wondering why this country is so wealthy, with so many steaming here legally and illegally every year, when the fact is that we're all stupid graduites of a failed system.

"The premise in several of these posts seems to be that schools are not good, that students are not being properly educated. "

There he goes again.

You are very good at defending an unchallenged position. (Often called a "strawman").

Who said the Glen Ridge schools were bad?

Katie, if only that picture got the full "No Turns on Red" sign...

(since they're all wearing red)

Who said YOU said GR schools were bad. I used a synedoche, my somewhat dim friend.
Wasn't the strawman the one without a brain?

with so many steaming here legally and illegally every year, when the fact is that we're all stupid graduites of a failed system.

Oh, I don't know, perhaps they come here on such things as H1-B visas to do the high tech and professional jobs for which there are not enough properly educated Americans to do?

But, that issue goes deeper than the performance of individual teachers and schools. Rather, it speaks to the larger issue of education priorities in this country, among which are not emphasizing education in math and science sufficiently to compete with developing nations such as India and China.

And I'm sure it's just a typo, but there is something comically ironic about you mis-spelling the word "graduates" in "stupid graduites".

I think you mean "synecdoche" oh brainy one.

(but you really don't even mean that.)

"And I'm sure it's just a typo, but there is something comically ironic about you mis-spelling the word "graduates" in "stupid graduites".

It's a natural law of the Internet. It's similar to "Godwin's Law". Whenever someone raps someone else for their spelling or grammar (or intelligence) they'll make some significant error in their own post.

p.s. I am not against the function of Unions. At many times in my working life I was member of a few. Going so far as to be on a contract negotiating committee.

But, I'll tell you one thing:

Guaranteed Job Security + Unionization = Mediocrity.

That is untrue. I see just as much mediocrity in corporate space. They just get paid less.

I am sure you do, Mikey, I am sure you do.

Oh yeah, ROC. You're a real hard worker blogging all day.

What is really ironic is constructing a sentence like
"blah, blah, blah..., for which there are not enough Americans to do".
Yes, I am guilty of a typo -- like writing are for is, for example, in your chastisement of fru-fru. That dang internet law again.
Sure, pork. That's why all those foreigners are here -- because there are no qualified Americans to do the high-tech stuff. Like, you know, the stuff that was invented here.
Frankly, I don't think you have aclue about what is emphasized in schools.
But you do have an opinion. And an interesting moniker.

I am, by the way, glad that you were not on the committe negotiating my contract.
I have a feeling I'd still be in the mine,a mile underground, waiting for that elevator.

Let's face it, our brainy professor wouldn't ever set foot in a mine if only because no one would be impressed with his "synecdoches".

Tenure exists because local honchos ousted people whose opinions they disliked or who stood in the way of their niece Emma getting a gig.

This happens everywhere. Why do elementary school teachers need special protection? They don't.

In theory, and more often than not, merit leads to tenure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in NJ schools all you need to do to get tenure is keep from getting sacked for 3 years. That's not much time to demonstrate merit. In the private sector, one has to demonstrate merit year in, year out. Why should teachers be a special case?

Well, my still dim witted friend, I grew up in a mining community, in a mining country, with a dad and a grandad who were miners, and I spent quite some time in the mines meself. That's why I chose that example.
But, you are right, as odd as that looks even writing it. I am a brainy professor. You are...what, exactly? The designated explainer of the "tragedy of the commons" perhaps? A failed Jesuit? Who knows. Perhaps you are the planet Bizarro doppelganger for lasermikey.
I'm wondering what companies could oust an employee for a political opinion, as has often happened with teachers -- those opinions being both of the left and the right variety. One "keeps from being sacked", presumably, by demonstrating merit. I have to admit to being puzzled as to why you could not connect those dots.
And yes, I see evidence of folks demonstrating merit in the private sector day after day, year after year, all of the time.
Right.

I grew up in a mining community, in a mining country, with a dad and a grandad who were miners, and I spent quite some time in the mines meself. That's why I chose that example.

croiagusanam is Zoolander.

"meself" - man, your typing sucks! Get FireFox - it has a built-in spell checker!

My zenophobic friend, meself is common usage in the UK and Ireland. If you got out of the house more, you'd know that.

By the way, Mr. Pork, did you know that Firefox and the Mozilla Corporation were both founded by, and staffed exclusively by, foreign hi-tech brainiacs on H1-B visas?

Actually, I've been to both the UK (Scotland, specifically) and Ireland, enjoyed both countries enormously, and only regret that I cannot return until such time as the dollar rises against the euro and the pound.

My, but you are quick to hurl epithets! You can certainly excuse me for thinking that "meself" was a typo, this being the United States after all, not the UK or Eire. (And although some across the pond might pronounce it "meself", it would still be spelled "myself" in proper English, no?)

I do get out of the house quite often. Too often in fact; perhaps if I was home more those giant dust bunnies in the corner wouldn't be there. But do let me know if you want to hang sometime so you can show me the world.

Proper English? From an American? OK. I'll bite. What does that look like?
I really don't want to show you the world, Pork. You're better discovering it on your own. And if you really did think that meself was a typo, what does it say about you that you'd rush to point out a typo?
However, me folks (no typo) will welcome you with open arms, and outstretched palms, should you grace them with your presence and your willingness to instruct us all on what is, after all, YOUR native tongue.

See, now you're just saying provocative things to be, in the now infamous words of one of our regular posters, "an obnoxious turd."

Proper English? From an American? OK. I'll bite. What does that look like?
And you accuse me of being xenophobic (you spelled this work wrong also). It looks like American English, as opposed to Canadian English, British English, etc. While I may not have the eloquence and sweeping vocabulary of some of our stalwart posters here, I nevertheless still do a pretty good job at putting all the words in the right order, and that's half the battle, eh? Oh, and my spelling is usually pretty spot-on unless I have recently consumed an adult beverage (and the accuracy of said spelling is inversely related to the quantity imbibed of said beverage).

And who exactly are "me folks", anyway? Hobbits, or trolls? Me, I'm New Jersey born and bred, and my native tongue is indeed English, albeit with a diluted North Jersey accent (me at Dunkin Donuts: "Medium cawfee please, light and sweet!")

Oh, and what it says about me that I would point out one of your numerous spelling errors (or "typos", if you prefer) is that I think you hardly have reason to be as smugly condescending in your remarks to us as you have been - especially after you posted this gem:

ROC, spelling along with proper capitalization IS important.

I couldn't agree more! See? We're actually both on the same side, so what do you say we end this silly tete-a-tete? (People are starting to look at us!)

Let them look. I am not ashamed, though I'd prefer you remaine silent on our nights out on the town.

Smug, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I've got a long way to go to get in the top tier on this site, but I'll do ME best, mate.

though I'd prefer you remaine silent on our nights out on the town.

Of course! What happens in Baristaville, stays in Baristaville.

Sorry, can't let this go. Do you find it "comically ironic" that you told me I spelled this "work" wrong also?
Slan agus siochan

You are one cranky beeyatch, cromagnonman.

Why, thank you. That may be the only correct statement you've made here, that I've seen.

Yes, that is rather comically ironic, isn't it? Actually, it's pretty funny. I laughed out loud ("LOL" for you whippersnappers) when I realized what I did! Hoisted on my own petard, as it were (or whatever that expression is).

Alas, we are still imperfect creatures, as much as we might strive for perfection (or at least the appearance thereof).

The striving is, at the end of the day, what matters.

For all your verbal motion, cromagnonman, you don't generate much heat. For one thing, you seem to have conflated ROC and me--and I resent being addressed as "my dim-witted friend," especially since I've been nothing but civil and polite to you, and you've failed to address my rebuttals to your "argument." I also resent being condescended to by one as pompous and yet mentally lax as you. You seem to be the very epitome of the worst of the tenured teaching profession--the type who wouldn't survive very long at all in an environment in which a high standard of performance is expected on a consistent basis. (You'll make a noise of objection, but you really have no clue what it's like outside the cozy walls of your job-for-life, and I think in your hearts you know it.) You spout haughtily about how one mustn't be persecuted for one's ideas, but what do you have to offer in the end but nonsense?

It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is in this forum to sniff out a bullshitter.

I suppose, Harvey Wallbanger, that part of your civility is mangling my screen name, maybe because you feel that your great wit makes for more yucks from your cronies. I'm sure there's a reason. I'm equally sure it is coherent only to you. "Cranky beeyatch" is clearly a term of endearment. How did I miss that example of civility.
Wallabyplug, I couldn't care less about your opinion of me. Your much-vaunted sniffing ability has failed to turn up an accurate read on my profession, but why should you bother with the facts when your assumptions make for such a cozy mental nest? You are the very epitome of a blowhard.
You may, of course, carry on with your oh-so-clever jousting with lasermike, et al. Its fun to read, and occasionally you stumble upon a good turn of phrase or a clever retort. But all in all, you are clearly a dope of the first order.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go to work so that I might perform to a high standard, consistently.

Please, please, please...give them the damn money!

We don't need GR to turn into another Montclair where you have high taxes and schools that suck!

Obviously, the teachers having been doing the right thing in GR --it is a very desirable locale because of its schools.

I don't think GR residents want to end up sending their kids to a private school AND pay the taxes that they do! Let's not model GR after Montclair!

Hahahahahahaha

walleroo, Cathar, and the entire clique of English buffs are a bit nausiating for this forum. First of all, the normal group of people don't use your literary terms in their daily communications.
Secondly, those that do emit a pompous stench too potent for the normal person to breathe. So, why don't you put your anal retentive character in a place more suiting for your narrow mind.
be gone before someone drops a house on you.

walleroo, Cathar, and the entire clique of English buffs are a bit nausiating for this forum. First of all, the normal group of people don't use your literary terms in their daily communications.
Secondly, those that do emit a pompous stench too potent for the normal person to breathe. So, why don't you put your anal retentive character in a place more suiting for your narrow mind.
be gone before someone drops a house on you.

whocares13, don't hate us (me at least) for being quite a bit smarter than you and concerned about the proper use of language. And we (the royal "we" here) in turn will try not to be appalled by your apparent willingness to wallow in your own self-professed loutishness.

Be careful, too, that the "house" doesn't crumble in on you first before you attemot to wield it as a weapon. These things happen.

I take your "literary terms" to mean "plain English", to which to plead guilty.

whocares,
If you took the time to actually care about an issue instead of calling people names then maybe you'd be able to contribute to the dialogue.

Iceman, what is to become of the Yankees? Watching them last night I felt like I had been transported back to Shea! Oh, woe.

i'd like to just go back to ROC"S comment for a second about supply/demand, etc...:

"which would be the "natural" way to get a raise, supply, demand and merit. Were the teachers to do the same they might also make more. Well, the good ones anyway, the ones in "demand".
Sort of argues in favor of doing away with tenure, no?"

ROC, if you knew anything about child development, you would know that in order for children/students to learn, they require safe, stable learning environments. classrooms need to be lead by teachers students know & trust. now, i too am not a huge fan of tenure, but without it, schools literally WOULD become revolving doors as is the case in many corporate industries. if that become a reality, learning would not occur and it would be our children and students who suffer.

Jola, you've just made a very good argument for not hiring women of child-bearing age for the classroom. It's very disruptive to education when a pregnant teacher goes on leave in the nmiddle of a school year.

Seriously, the problem you mention exists today, but it could be solved by other means--for instance, by giving a cash bonus at the end of term.

And we (the royal "we" here) in turn will try not to be appalled by your apparent willingness to wallow in your own self-professed loutishness.

Posted by cathar | October 5, 2007 9:09 AM

In your case cathar, it's not the royal we, it's because you have tapeworms and lice!

"I too am not a huge fan of tenure, but without it, schools literally WOULD become revolving doors as is the case in many corporate industries."

Yet, somehow countless other industries which don't have tenure seem to manage. Including, I might add, nursery schools.

Are you suggesting teachers would leave mid-term in droves?

So all at once teachers can be trusted to be good teacher with tenured jobs, but at the same time without tenure they'd become selfish abandoners?

I don't buy it.

Not just nursery schools, but private and parochial schools also - you know, the schools that people pay extra (sometimes quite a bit "extra") beyond their public school taxes to get their kids into.

(Indeed, sometimes much, much more. My sister, who lives in Toms River, now pays less per year to send my nephew to Ocean County College than she did any year she sent him to Catholic elementary and high school. Quite a premium considering there are no tenured teachers, no?)

Oops...I'd better be careful there. If I keep up that line of reasoning, it's just a short hop, skip and a jump to advocating for school choice, vouchers, and maybe greater privatization of elementary and secondary schools. Heaven help me if I challenge orthodoxy!

The turnover rate in nursery schools, and in parochial schools, is off the charts. That is due in large part to the salaries. Public schools throughout the country are chock full of teachers who spent their early years in these schools, gaining experience, so that they could leave and make a livable wage. In many cases, they worked in these schools while obtaining certification, for as you surely know this certification is not required in order to teach in parochial schools. Given the great number of parochial schools shutting down around the country, even with these lower labor costs and with tuition revenues, I'm not sure how well they are "managing".
There will always be those who choose this option. That is fine with me. Many of these schools do a great job. Choice is a fine thing.
It si interesting to read a defense of workers opting to move on for better deals at the expense of longevity in a particular company. Most people I talk to bemoan the fact that loyalty, on the part of both worker and employer, is a good thing -- and that its demise over the past 30 years or so in response to layoffs, outsourcing, pension collapses, etc. has had a deleterious effect on American industry.
I guess its one thing to "manage", and quite another to thrive.