The Sounds Of Silence

Damn right the political correctness is censoring our children's world experiences. How will it hurt a child's growth to sing and or hear Handel's Messiah or "Oh, Holy Night". Censorship is censorship even when it's couched in the bullshit rhetoric of the "do-gooders" asquerading as caring Democrats.

Merry Christmas, dammit.

Agreed, Ice. What difference does it make whether the censorship comes from our government or from PC "do-gooders?" It's still censorship. I can think of a few megalomaniac world leaders who also tried to censor anthing that smacked of religion. We all know how that turned out.

The world is truly becoming a scary place.

Eid al-Adha starts on December 19th.

Hey Ice, I'm a card carrying liberal caring democrat and I also believe that it is wrong. You can't lump everyone in one bucket.

Those no good do-gooders--they've ruined Christmas!

I'm all for the separation of church and state and the lunacy, tunnel vision and narrow-mindedness of the Christian right drive me batty. BUT, c'mon, a little Christmas music should be allowed to be sung--sounds like they want to be all-inclusive with the other holidays represented, too. I think one can appreciate the beauty of "Oh, Holy Night" without believing that Mary gave birth to the son of God without having sex--well, it IS a little hard to believe, but that's a whole other story :) The season can be about joy, wonder and giving to anyone, really, and nothing sends chills down my spine like a beautifully sung rendition of "Carol Bells."

Perhaps the fear of offending others has really gone a bit too far. However, if someone says to me, "Happy Holidays," instead of Merry Christmas, it doesn't send me into a tizzy like it seems to do to other Christians. I simply reply with a "Thank you, and Merry Chrismakwanukkah to you."

"...lunacy, tunnel vision and narrow-mindedness."

This is not exclusive to Christians.

Anne,
Point taken...I just got carried away in my zeal.

Merry Chrismakwanukkah

No, Miss Martta, it is certainly not.

I read these things every year, and I must say I'm puzzled. In the past several years, I must have attended "holiday" programs at at least a dozen schools -- elementary, secondary -- in NJ and NY, Texas and Massachusetts, Rhode Island -- and I have heard Christmas music at every one of them. Usually there are a few Jewish songs as well, and even a Kwanzaa tune. But by all means, Christmas songs have been sung and I haven't heard or seen a single person storm out of the hall in protest.
So where are these problems? Admitedly, I have not been to a program in Montclair, but are things really all that different there?

Thanks Appletony for the reminder. I plan to sacrifice going out for the NYTimes today.
You puzzle me Sularu. How do you denominate yourself "Christian" if you do not believe in the Virgin birth?
It is futile to try to stamp out religions - the needy faithful come up with a new one at least every century - e.g. most recent nonsense, Mormons and Kwaanzanistas.

Seriously, though, and I don't mean to offend: If someone is an atheist or a non-Christian, why should Christmas music, decorations, pageants, etc. bother them? I really don't get it. How does that rattle their religion or philosophy? The celebration, while religious, is a seasonal one. The decorations are not left up all year (or shouldn't be!), the songs not sung 365 days. No one is trying to covert anyone. What gives?

How will it hurt a child's growth to sing and or hear Handel's Messiah or "Oh, Holy Night

Why should Jewish kids have to sing about Jesus?

The world is truly becoming a scary place.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration don't you? Kids are not being asked to perform goat sacrifices on stage -- they're just passing on "O Holy Night."

This whole 'war on Christmas' BS is completely manufactured by Bill O'Reilly and his ilk, but I do find one part of it amusing. Though you guys scream about religion being taken out of the public square, you simultaneously say kids should be able to sing "O Holy Night" because it's just "seasonal." No, it's religious, and if you believe in it so much, send Johnny to Immaculate Conception and he can sing his little Christian heart out there.

Miss Martta, I agree with you but I can understand how others might rightfully object to having their children awash in peans of praise for assorted decendents or prophets of God in order to attend school.

Spectator - I didn't really say what I believe in, but I think I can denominate myself whatever I want without having to defend or explain my beliefs.

And with all my blathering, I was trying to say what Miss Martta said so succinctly. (Although I firmly believe that decorations should be taken down by the Epiphany if not sooner.)

Of interest, though:

"The Virgin Birth and Virgin Mary are, pardon the pun, pregnant with social symbolic significance in most, if not all, parts of the world. Whether you believe in them or not, they are solid social constructs, rehearsed endlessly in art, humour, everyday life, and language. And yet their birth is due to a relatively simple mistake in translation. The Old Testament talks about almah 'young woman,' not bethulah 'virgin.' However, the scholars in the 3rd century BC translated the Hebrew almah as parthenos in Greek. Thus the 'young woman' in Hebrew metamorphosed into a 'virgin' in Greek and she has remained a virgin ever since in translations across the world. The notion of 'virgin birth' was born, thanks to a mistranslation."

Missygooch: When I was in elementary school in the 1960s, we ALL sang those songs in Christmas pageants: Jews and Christians alike. No one's parents called to complain, no one's life was altered tragically. Some us DID learn the story behind that music and how to carry a tune (a skill I have since lost!) Really, I think you're exaggerating a bit.

PS: We sang Hanukah songs, too.

I agree Miss Marta.

I went to my daughters concert on Friday (she is in the 6th grade) and they sang seasonal songs, i.e., about Frosty and Santa and a few Hannukah songs, but no "religious" songs nor interstingly enough any Kwanza songs which I thought odd since we are in a ethnic population.

Interesting Sularu, did not know that. Slightly off-topic, but speaking of virgins (kinda), I also recently learned that white wedding dresses are a very recent invention as far as the history of humanity is concerned. In fact, white was a mourning color in Europe until the black plague. White is still a mourning color in India. In many cultures, vibrant colors are what the bride chooses.

I thought Jesus was Jewish? I sang the dradle song and I'm not Jewish. I sung all the Christmas carols and I don't believe in that stuff either. But the one thing that I am sure of is that there is a Santa Claus! We just didn't have Kwanzaa back then, so that wasn't an issue.

No more Christmas carols? What's next, kids can't play with freakin' balls?!?!?!

The kids could probably survive without Holy Night, missygooch, or Jingle Bell Rock. But can they really survive as civilized people without Handel's Messiah?

Part of this problem is the overall neglect of music in the Montclair schools. (Sorry, Drums of Thunder doesn't count.) And of course the neglect of classical music in our society generally. Should keep Bach out of the schools because he composed for the church?

I’ll remember how tolerant you all are when a Montclair school requires its students to sing praise to Allah.

Careful with the Drums of Thumder Wally, you're stomping on someone else's religion.

I am aghast that walleroo has again come out clearly and forcefully demanding that Drums of Thunder be stopped!

... or something like that.

I have retained appletony to field any and all comments about DOT. He is available 24/7.

Fundamentalist Muslims reject "hymns", and in fact if they are of the Taliban stripe, they reject music. There are no Muslim "hymns", but there are many facets of Muslim culture that are or should be part of any well-rounded education.
If your faith is strong, it will not be threatened by hearing songs or reading texts from another faith. I wonder if missygooch feels that non-Christian students should not have to endure viewing and commenting upon "Christian" art from the likes of Michaelangelo, Titian, or DaVinci? Or reading "Christian" literature from Dante or Milton?

Miss Martta--yes, I do remember reading that. I have been to a few Indian weddings and they are colorful, indeed.

I can see people of the Jewish faith being uncomfortable with their young children singing the clearly Jesus-centric songs like Silent Night (there are definitely more secular seasonal ones out there), but at the high school age, I would think there would be many talented kids that would benefit from singing the classical Christmas compositions and could appreciate the beauty of the music from an artistic stance rather than a religious one regardless of faith. But what do I know, I'm not Jewish, just a cafeteria Catholic who doesn't believe in the virgin birth!

What does Ms. Barista, (Debbie) herself think?

My problem with all this is the relativism associated with it. For Christians, Christmas one of the most important (and celebrated holidays), whereas Chanukkah is a minor holiday that has been elevated because of proximity to Christmas, which is why for many of us, this was not a real issue growing up). And of course Kwanzaa is a created (1966) "holiday."

So while I am not particularly religious, I hate that Christmas been rolled into this new American holiday of "Holiday." Where we have a "holiday tree," we greet each other with, "happy holiday," we have a "holiday" turkey, and we sing "holiday" songs.

(I'm certainly no theologian so, please correct as needed).

When I say ‘happy holidays,’ I usually mean Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. It’s not automatically a left-winger seeking to placate a stranger whose religious affiliation he or she is unaware of (what a horror that would be!). As for someone celebrating Kwanzaa instead of Christmas, well, big deal – it’s a free country, last time I checked. If someone wants to put more importance on that, how does that affect you?

prof -
That may be the case in certain very public arenas but in the privacy of one's home or in church and with friends and family, people very freely say "Merry Christmas, what a beautiful Christmas tree, what a delicious Christmas ham and turkey and let's sing along with Nat to the "Christmas Song" as we roast our Christmas chestnuts before attending midnight mass!"

As an aside, did anyone see the story about the store in NYC that was advertising a "Hanukkah Ham." Ridiculous! Next year there will be Hanukkah lobster tails!

Have you ever listened to Handel's Messiah, missygooch? Or Bach's St. Matthew's Passion? If you can sit through a decent performance of either one and then tell me sincerely that you'd rather your kids weren't exposed to this music in the schools, I will show up at Starbucks on Valley Road at a time of your choosing and eat 1 lb of French roast with a spoon.

"As an aside, did anyone see the story about the store in NYC that was advertising a "Hanukkah Ham." Ridiculous! Next year there will be Hanukkah lobster tails!"

Hah! Yes, I did see this, I think it was in Daily News. You can't make this up!

Wake up, people: it's about the music; in the name of political correctness, we are destroying our children's lives.geeeeez.

Wake up, people: it's about the music; in the name of political correctness, we are steadily removing joy from our children's lives.geeeeez.

In trying to be so politically correct...we are doing so wrong by our children. Very sad indeed.

The Chanukkah Cham was at Balducci's.

The music is great.

The religions, historically, have blood on their hands.

Bloody Religions! a pox on all your houses.
Only old house tear downs stirs up the Baristavillins more than religion.

If, by "blood on their hands" you mean that religions have harmed people over the centuries, and persecuted non-believers, then you're right. All religions that I can think of, from the dawning of time, have been at some point non-tolerant to others.
What has that got to do with Christmas music being a part of a school celebration? Perhaps there should be no celebration of patriotic themes because there used to be slavery.
Is anyone actively trying to convert non-Christians by pounding Christmas music into them? In the case of Jewish kids, is a culture that has existed for 6000 years going to fade away because Silent Night brought it down?
If blood on our hands is to be the mantra, we'd all best pack up and leave the continent that "we" wrested from the original inhabitants in such a "bloody" fashion.
Including you, Mr. Perlstein.

If you can sit through a decent performance of either one and then tell me sincerely that you'd rather your kids weren't exposed to this music in the schools, I will show up at Starbucks on Valley Road at a time of your choosing and eat 1 lb of French roast with a spoon.

I’m not saying that. But there’s plenty of great classical music that has nothing to do with Jesus – let’s sing that instead of forcing Jewish or Muslim or athiest kids to sing praise to Jesus.

Besides, the guy whose email started this doesn’t even know why Messiah was taken off the list of songs sung at Montclair schools’ holiday concerts. Maybe the kids can’t sing it anymore. Maybe someone took over who hates it. Who knows?

This post already has more comments on it than Friday’s death penalty post. How ridiculous.

Just the facts:

I'm Jewish. Bar Mitzva'd and member of Temple Israel of South Orange. I also keep Kosher. That said...
I sang Christmas Carols in elementary school, Jr. High & Senior High. I survived.

A small group of Jewish Moms (not mine) were a bit upset over their kids singing this stuff. So, they went to school to kvetch about it. It was decided that the school system would include several Chanukah hymns as well. I believe the number of unhappy Moms was like 4. Following year, 5 Chanukah numbers were taught and included. The Non-Jewish Moms went freakin' nuts over this...so much so, 11 made their kids drop out of Chorus !
So, you see the ball bounces two ways.
If you have faith in your faith and believe in it and practice it, singing a song as a chorus member ain't gonna hurt you, whether you are Bengie Berger or Tony Sanacore! When I say "Happy Holiday" I usually mean Christmas & Chanukah as New Years is NOT a HOLYday, and holiday is derived from Holy Day. I say Happy Holidays and Happy New Year, which is usually about 3 weeks after Chanukah, which is usually very very close to Christmas.

PS/ I've also been 2 times to Midnight Mass. Beautiful, simply beautiful service.
Out LAdy of Sorrows in South Orange!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE !

MAZOL TOV !

Happy Chrismahanukwanzikah!

Did I leave anybody out?

Not sure on your spelling.

Pork Roll:
Nice try, but to answer your question,you inadvertantly left out every Hindu, Moslem, Sikh, Druze, Bahai'i, and so on. Basically half the human race, including many tax paying American citizens of those creeds.

Croiagusanam:
I'm not too sure why I have the blood of native Americans on my hands, especially since my clan didn't get here till about 1914. But, yes, we all, as Americans, enjoy residual benefits from the exploitation of Native Americans by our founding fathers,not to mention the slavery of Africans. I think about that every time I go to Mesa Verde or any Antebellum mansion.

So, let's sing to the season, if our kids would otherwise be suffering from a form of deprivation. The question is, when do we tell the same kids of the dark side of it all?

I suppose you have the "blood" of native Americans on your hands because you live and prosper on land that was "stolen" from them, if you want to follow your logic vis a vis religion to its absurd extreme. If you say your folks didn't get here in time to do the deed, they certainly did not go out of their way to turn it down -- nor do you. The blood of the inquisition is not anywhere near my hands, nor anyone's I know. In short, its old history, and to allege that all are tainted is foolishness.
As to whne to teach the kids, well, I hope youve done that already. I know I make a point to tell kids every side of the story, but knowing about the ugliness does not detract from the beauty.

Nice try, but to answer your question,you inadvertantly left out every Hindu, Moslem, Sikh, Druze, Bahai'i, and so on. Basically half the human race, including many tax paying American citizens of those creeds.

Well, there you go. One cannot please everyone at the same time, nor should one try. People should be free to celebrate their holidays without being made to feel as if they have slighted, insulted, or left somebody out.

But, yes, we all, as Americans, enjoy residual benefits from the exploitation of Native Americans by our founding fathers,not to mention the slavery of Africans.

I'm not looking to open this as the latest topic of ranting, er, debate, but it seems that most countries and civilizations have advanced by exploiting other peoples, or some of their own people. History is replete with examples, it's certainly not a strictly American phenomena. I don't mean to trivialize the history of native Americans or African slaves, but simply point out that exploitation seems to be an almost universal aspect of human civilization.

"Deck us all with Boston Charlie,
Walla walla Wash., an' Kalamazoo!
Nora's freezin' on the trolly,
Swaller dollar cauliflower alley'garoo!.....Tanx to Walt Kelly and the POGO crew!Happy Holydays to all!

No "h" at the end of Chrismahanukwanzikah.

Delete the "h" and you're good to go.

Chrismahanukwanzika

Kwanzaa has absolutely nothing in common with such religious commeorations as Christmas or Hanukkah, or even with Eid for that matter. Do we have to keep plowing this ground and helping soread the myth that it does?

It was created by a Black Nationalist thug and convicted kidnapper named Ron Karenga, whose homies used to shoot it out with Panthers during the day, as a refutation of what he regarded as the fraudulence of Christianity. (Today Karenga of course heads up the Black Studies Department of a school in the Cal state U system; he definitely knows how to jerk whitey's chain.) Kwanzaaa also utilizes Swahili as the language for its "Principles," but Swahili is hardly the tongue of the majority in Africa, although it proved convenient for Karenga's warmed-over philosophy of "self-reliance" and separatism.

Then American marketers of assorted ethnic stripes wanted to get in on the act. Hence Kwanzaa cards, candles, etc. But again, the mock holiday period has nothing in common with genuinely religious holidays.

And were you to ask actual Africans about the "traditional harvest festival" known as Kwanzaa, Christians, Musims and animist alike, they'd simply be appropriately baffled, would have no idea what you're talking about.

"For unto us a Son is born..." should certainly be where Christmas celebrations begin. And with the Old Testament for Hanukkah and the Q'ran for Eid.

And before someone else pipes up that the Yuletide is actually when believers in the "old religion" honored their deities and thus that Christianity co-opted "their" holiday, no again. Nothing is reliably known of what primitive European man believed in or worshipped 5000 or more years ago, but no serious researcher in the field thinks Wicca is the genuine "old religion," what we call Wicca dates back at best to the 19th century. All we really can assume about folks' belief systems in the Neolithic period is that they were awfully interested in solar and lunar cycles and also in the night sky, likely interests for farmers at any time.

Even the idea of the Christmas tree actually has specifically Christian connotations, by the way. It refers back to St. Boniface's preaching success to the pagan Germanic tribes, and to their oaken "Irmenseul" sacred tree or pillar supposedly being supplanted (indicated by its "kneeling") to a new fir tree erupting from its roots representing the new, triumphant Christian god. This is an a frequent motif in early medieval art.

Festivus for the rest of us!

My favorite Kwanza song is He Soldered on a Midnight Clear.

I once wanted to become an atheist, but I gave up - they have no holidays.

Henny Youngman

From Wiki:

Maulana Karenga , also known as Ron Everett...

"... the founder of Kwanzaa..."

Says it all.

But then again (from Wiki also): Festivus is an annual holiday invented (in the 70's) by Reader's Digest writer and editor Daniel O'Keefe.

Who was the "founder" of Christmas?

Pork Roll, I naturally don't share your view that the issues I raised are a rant or a digression. The meaning of the birth of Jesus is the basis of this season, and the misfortune of those on whose backs our collective bounty rests is something Jesus would have found distressing.

Quote from profwilliams: 'And of course Kwanzaa is a created (1966) "holiday."'

Kwanzaa, Christmas, Hanukkah, and all other holidays are created, by humans.

Again.: it's about the music.

My two-year old granddaughter loves to sing nursery songs while riding along in her tiny car seat. Last week, she launched into a spirited, melodically accurate, rendition of "Dreidel! Dreidel! Dreidel!" pausing once or twice to express equal delight in the colorful Christmas light displays on the houses we passed. She sang the Dreidel song with the same gusto and cluelessness that she sings the songs of Christmas.

I had to smile to myself, and feel a ashamed that even I, a Montclair black liberal, was surprised. I also wondered whether the same state that probably mandated this "holiday diversity" in a nursery school would ultimately challenge her freedom to enjoy the gifts of many traditions.

Guess I got my answer.

PS. As one of the people who helped the brilliant and demented demogogue, Ron Karenga, to bring Kwanzaa to the East Coast, I have no recollection of any great traditional songs associated with this modern American based ritual.

I wish Ch 13 had decided to air Handel's Messiah tonight instead of tonight's Weill-Brecht dissonance.

Yes, someone somewhere might possibly be offended by school kids singing Handel's Messiah, Perlstein. It's a difficult problem in our immigrant society that has no real common basis other than the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. What I find annoying is that you, far from being sad at this cultural loss, apparently exult in it. The world according to Perlstein is a dismal place indeed. No Kingdom of Heaven there, that's for sure.

there�s plenty of great classical music that has nothing to do with Jesus � let�s sing that instead...

No, you're wrong. There is only one Mass in B Minor by Bach, and I'm sorry, it happens to have been written for the church. There isn't plenty of other classical music. There's nothing else like it! That's the point!

Oh, missygooch, talk to me when you've heard the dang music.

...and futhermore, (I'm not addressing anyone in particular), while folks are busy crushing Handel, our children are left with idolizing idols, dancing stars, clashing choirs, and mutant mice on ice, disguised as music and performance arts. God of all nations, save us!

You are correct, Walleroo. I do not believe in the Kingdom of Heaven or any other hereafter.

However, this does not concern me, because I do believe that there is more than enough good here, in this world, right now, even if we merely end up as worm food or forest fertilizer.

Old & New Testament rubbing elbows in The Messiah. What more to ask for? Throw in some Gil Scott-Heron and now your talking!

you babblers have lost the your focus in a web of anger; This is not a thread; it's a frayed rope.

you babblers have lost your focus in a web of anger; This is not a thread; it's a frayed rope.

The great Creator to revere Must sure become the creature; But still the preaching cant forbear, And ev'n the rigid feature: Yet ne'er with wits profane to range Be complaisance extended;An atheist laugh's a poor exchange For deity offended. Robert Burns

We were talking about music, Perlstein, not the hereafter. I have no interest in your theology.

Walleroo, the music is an outgrowth of the theology, and, secondarily, it was you who, legitimately, brought up the Kingdom of Heaven,and hence, theology.
You were also the one who. legitimately, brought up the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
For you to suddenly attempt to contract the discussion down seems odd.
Merry Christmas

The music may well be an "outgrowth" (which sounds like something a dermotologist should check) of the theology for the composer -- those who wrote and even perhaps performed the music did so in part to give voice to their beliefs. But it is not in any way necessary for an individual to buy into the theology in order to appreciate the beauty of the music. That seems to be where you'rr stumbling. This is not true simply with music from a Christian tradition. There are countless beautiful examples of music, literature, art and dance from many different cultures throughout the world, and they are all worthy of study and should be appreciated. To suggest that one should only study those works from one's tradition, or that one should avoid works from a "blood-stained" culture, is to be well on the way to becoming a home grown taliban.

People should be free to celebrate their holidays without being made to feel as if they have slighted, insulted, or left somebody out.

How funny. You must not have ventured out of your house in the past month and a half. Everywhere you go, there are Christmas decorations, Christmas songs playing on the radio and in stores, Christmas sales, stories about Christmas on the news, shows about Christmas on tv, movies about Christmas in the theatre – ONLY in America would all of this happen and Christians feel like they are being made to feel ashamed of their faith.

Happy Holidays!

What nonsense! Christmas is a holiday celebrated by the majority of Americans, so there are decorations and songs and all of that in evidence. However, those who have different traditions -- or those who have no traditions at all -- are free and are in fact encouraged to enlighten the rest of the country about those traditions. The concept here is freedom -- freedom to celebrate or not to celebrate. Why anyone, majority or minority, should have to curtail their celebration because everyone else does not agree is a mystery to me, and it sounds like something one would expect in countries like Saudi Arabia -- where any expression or mention of a religion other than Islam is forbidden.
Are you suggesting that frequent exposure to lighted candy canes and creches causes psychological damage to those from other traditions?

Hey,, how about those of the Green faith?? Lighting candy canes, burning petroleum candles, wrapping gifts with paper from trees,and chopping down fir trees is ...well, need I explain? Bring on the live music, please, whatever the kind that soothes our sorry souls..

Are you suggesting that frequent exposure to lighted candy canes and creches causes psychological damage to those from other traditions?

Wow, you're a real moron.

The point of my post - which is clear to anyone with a fifth-grade education - is that no one has taken Christmas away from anyone. Walk outside! Try to go into a store without being assaulted with terrible Christmas music. See if you can find a town that isn't decked out with candy canes and Christmas wreaths. THEN tell me that Christians are being asked to 'curtail their celebration.'

bfblahs,

You are correct with much of what you say. However, as this post suggest, some are "taking away" some Christmas traditions: music in this case.

So while a PRIVATELY owned store may play Christmas music, we must distinguish this from STATE involvement-- schools, public spaces, etc. This is where some feel Christmas is being taken away from them.

And to some extent, I agree.

You remind me, Perlstein, of communist apparatchiks endorsing music that celebrates "socialist values." What a bleak world the world of Perlstein must be. Tell me truthfully, Perlstein, have you ever really listened to Handel's Messiah? I think not. If you have, then you're either tone deaf or your heart is made of stone.

It is evident from your post, bf, that whatever tradition spawned you fell down on the "civility" piece.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you will see that the original issue was exactly about "taking away", in the sense that music deemed offensive to some was to made unavailable to all -- even though, in this case, it was a minority that found the music offensive (or maybe just insensitive).
Now, I may be a moron. There are some who'd agree. But I can follow a thread. It would appear that you, in addition to being a rude and obnoxious boor, cannot.

I think there's a big difference between the repetitive, monotonous music played in dept. stores and Handel's Messiah. Personally, I'd rather see less blowup Santas and ticky tack but be that as it may, 'tis the season so why don't all the Scrooges just lighten up a bit and let those who celebrate Christmas enjoy their holiday? It's only another week!

It's only incidental, but the "war on Christmas' is not at all the sole creation of Bill O'Reilly and his like. The term goes from a pretty good book by an academic from, I think, Syracuse U, who was interested in and concerned about the effort to eradicate the very ideaof celebrating the occasion (f not the exact date) of Christ's birth in our secular society. It's a very good book which also spawned a History Channel special. Only afterwards did Fox News seize upon the issue.

That J. Perlstein and a few others seem unable to admit or respond to the religious impulse that made Handel write his famous oratorio (I'd add Arvo Part, Penderecki and many other composers to this equation) is, as walleroo says, saddening. Atheists, I note, often like to suggest that an artist like Piero della Francesca would simply have painted "something else" in the absence of religious inspiration. Anyone, however, who's ever looked at the art produced in the officially atheistic Soviet Union during its heyday is almost invariably forced to admit that such "something else" is pretty lousy. And utterly devoid of anything save the most corruptive sort of feelings. Even a modest-sized 19th century painted icon often makes grand pieces of Soviet sculpture and murals look, as well as simply ill-intentioned, brutish and lacking in genuine artistic aspiration.

"Censureship"??????????

You haven't heard Christmas Carols until you've heard them played by a Salvation Army brass ensemble.

I played in a Salvation Army brass quartet @ E.J. Korvettes in West Orange in the 60's. We were accomplished High School instrumentalists and when we played, the bucket got full real fast.

Every hour or so we took our breaks in the recliner section of the furniture department and listened to the more 'tepid' variety of Christmas music that the store was broadcasting.

It was really cool to have people come up to us and thank us for the beautiful music.

So when I hear people complain about being subjected to Christmas music all I do is think back to those cold nights outside the department store and I smile.

I like cheese.

This is where some feel Christmas is being taken away from them. And to some extent, I agree.

I didn't realize Montclair's school district had the power to take away Christmas. Who knew?

"Taken away" was quoted a few times above.

But what would you call it when all references to "Christmas" disappear in the public space? And yes, Montclair School does have the power to take away "Christmas."

"Christmas" break for me, growing up, was just that, Christmas Break. So was the annual Christmas assembly, pageant, bake sale, etc.

And we happily sang "Christmas" songs. Today, as you see here, that is not so. This is how "Christmas" is being taken away.

(Obviously, the holiday still exists.....)

Women's clothing sales are down 6%. It's time to declare a national emergency.

"Oh come all ye faithful. Time to buy some handbags. Oh come ye oh come ye to Macy's and Nordstoooomms."

Just because you sang Christmas songs when you were a kid doesn’t automatically make it a good thing or something that should be done forever into the future. Things change. Depending on your age, when you were a kid, you probably did all sorts of things in school we don’t do today (and for the better).

My point is – stop acting like a bunch of persecuted Christians. No one is stopping you from celebrating the holiday and you can say ‘Merry Chistmas’ to whoever you want at any time.

Merry Christmas missygooch.

"Just because you sang Christmas songs when you were a kid doesn’t automatically make it a good thing"

Yes it does. Does so. Does so. Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Nyahhhhhhhhhhh!

Hey all you Christmas lovers out there, what's your favorite Christmas song.

I like Nat King Cole's version of just about everything Christmas.

"Hark the Herald Angels Sing" is another personal favorite.

Missygooch, the point is to sing Christmas songs even as adults. Because we now perhaps better understand the resounding promise of Christmas, whatever our respective religious beliefs or even lack thereof.

It also sounds like you personally are much in need of such an emotional outburst. Sing lustily and with good courage, as the old Methodist hymn urges, missygooch. It just might help your seemingly crabbed, narrow little heart.

Praise be to Allah!

I will be spending the so-called "holiday" with family and friends, listening to Yoko Ono music and eating foods which were either grown at home, without the aid of pesticides, or were formed through a random bonding of atoms and molecules. There will be no animal products consumed. We will not sit by the fireside as we have no wish to add smoke to the environment, and we do not wish to use finite supplies of lumber for our own selfish enjoyment. We will conduct workshops throughout the day on various cultures not our own, so as to better appreciate the fact that ours is a blood-stained and misogynistic tradition that has sowed great evil in the world and contributed nothing of value. When Yoko is finished, we will play games that do not have winners or losers, and which are designed not to emphasize superior performance at the expense of others less athletic.
We will recite poetry written by blind Yamamoto tribeswomen and we will discuss its meaning. We will agree that we are worthless pieces of crap and that the world would be better off without us. We will wait patiently for the punishment we so richly deserve.

Currently it's the Sussex Carol, MellonBrush, or, as it's also known, "On Christmas Night."

On Christmas night the angels sing,
To share the joy the angels bring....(repeat)
News of great joy, news of great mirth,
News of our merciful King's birth

Amen, croiagusanam, and very nicely put.

LMAO! Good one, Croig!

croiagusanam, you wanna beer wid dat? I gotta coupla cold ones inna fridge I'll share wid you. You sound like you could use some Christmas cheer!

Although listening to Yoko Ono might be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment by some.

Then Yoko Ono must be banned along with the death penalty. Just add an addendum to that one quickly and we'll get it signed into law before Santa comes.

Thank you , MM, for your kind words, but frankly your use of a vulgarity, however well masked, offends me. Your bias towards the Asian chanteuse Ms Ono is equally inappropriate.

Conan, I have no interest in consuming beverages that were produced by exploited workers in Mexico (I'm assuming Coronas, as you sound like a Corona kind of guy) and, more to the point, were refrigerated artificially in a device which is throwing freon into the atmosphere and thereby hastening our doom. Additionally, these products contain alcohol, which has been responsible for much suffering and misery throughout history.
Besides, I'm Irish, and our antipathy to alocohol is well known.

Besides, I'm Irish, and our antipathy to alocohol is well known.

Reading that made this entire thread worth while.

As a Jew who went to school in New Jersey, I remember that my 2nd grade music teacher *forced* me to sing Christmas carols including "Merry Christmas" and "Silent Night" and even sent me to the principle's office when I refused to sing. Forcing children to sing holiday music in a public school is the State trying to establish a religion.

However, even if singing the carols was voluntary, I would still have a problem with it. The fact of the matter is that singing these religious songs is coercive: if you don't sing, the other kids will get mad at you and the teacher will think less of you. Not to mention, the Hanukkah songs that are sung at schools to include Jews are embarrassingly pathetic, and are not even in Hebrew.

If I lived in a country with a State religion, I would have no problem with my child participating and singing Christian holiday music. But that wasn't the deal that my forefathers signed up for, and I expect the State to stay out of my religious business.

"Corona, mi cula!" I am talking vintage Budweiser, here... And don't worry, there is nothing organic in Budweiser that would deplete any earthly inventory; even the water comes from the Passaic River. Good stuff. I guess you could call it Green Beer.

(sit ubu sit, good dog-- remember that from the end title sequence of that Michael J Fox show?)

I think many don't feel that: "Forcing children to sing holiday music in a public school is the State trying to establish a religion." (Peer pressure cannot be a reason to end a practice).

This is far from establishing a state religion. And I fear it is those, like you, who want see any mention of religion as "establishment."

That is wrong and goes against the intention of the framers.

Remember, the second part of the "establishment clause" reads: "... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.."

Ubu I wish that, while at the office, the administrator had mentioned that he/she was the principal, not the "principle". I agree that time spent singing holiday songs might have been better spent with spelling.
But anyway, your forefathers "signed up" to live in a country with a number of different cultures and traditions. They knew, as you should, that the great beauty of this country -- the thing that sets it apart from others -- is the acceptance that it offers to those from virtually all traditions. That's why Goldbergs can sing Silent Night and O'Malleys can sing Jewish anthems. If the current crop of Hanukah songs suck, why not suggest some new and better ones -- in Hebrew? I can't imagine any music teacher turning down such an offer. I'm sure they're tired of the dreidel song as well.
I question whether teachers think less of kids who don't sing these songs. What evidence do you have for this assertion?

Ubu, when I finally started going to my high school reunions, I got into a conversation with my Jewish peers & was surprised at how angry & bitter they were at having been made to go through the Xmas drill.

I was surprised only because they hid their feelings so well back in the day.

I went to a private school. It has evolved over the years. Their solution has been not to exclude Xmas from the holiday pageant, but to allow anyone who wants to opt out &/or choose their own songs for the program if they follow different faiths & are moved to do so. So far no one has had a problem with this approach. I think there's an atheist or two who simply stays home. I don't know if they feel excluded & bitter. The world being what it is today, we'd probably know if they did.

I don't know how this approach would fly in today's public schools - apparently it was tried & found wanting for unexplained reasons - but I still like it.

Ubu...I don't know of what you speak. I sang the Christmas songs in the lower grades, and it didn't bother me one bit. You don't have to believe in what you sing. Look at movie actors playing roles and how hard they work at it and memorzing their lines. Are they really the killers that they portray in the movie?
I also attended Temple Israel in South Orange and was a Bar Mitzvah there as well as the youth group's Treasurer. Today, as an adult, I still attend services there. My wife of 24 years is also Jewish. Her family were members of Ner Tamid on Broad St., in Blmfd. I keep the Holy-Days, even though all of our family are gone, AND I turned Kosher in 1982.
So, I fail to see how singing the songs of the majority in school hurt me. After all, we do live in a Christian Nation(...but "they" know who the good lawyers & doctors and dentists are....) :)

Final thought from me....

Ever hear of a heart transplant recipient that said he/she didn't want a perfect match because it was a heart from a person of another religion ?
Nope, me neither. We ARE all our brother's keeper.

Mazol Tov !

But I do remember when George Jefferson gave that KKK guy CPR and when told of it, the KKK guy said he wished he would have died.

Powerful stuff...

Up there in that DEE-LUX apartment in the sky.....

Would that be THE George Jefferson from the TV sitcom
The Jeffersons ? I think.

DeLuxe Apt in the sky? How many garages? (Always my 1st question) !

Have a peaceful Merry Christmas, Prof. in health !

Walleroo and Cathar, you guys are too much. Chosing between Soviet art/music and Christian art/music is the whole deal?
Now that's dismal.

Ugh, Perlstein, what I'm trying to say is that your literal interpretation of Church and State bears the same relationship to art as did Soviet apparatchiks demanding music that celebtrates glorious socialism. Capische?

By the way, cromagnon, that parody was the funniest thing I've read in a while.

My friend walleroo --
What makes you think that was a parody? I meant every word I wrote. That is how we'll spend the day.
You are welcome to join us, if you wish, provided that you exhibit the proper mix of penitence and shame for your transgressions. In honor of your homeland, I will supplement the Yoko music with aborigine drumming and digeredo solos.