Confederate Flag Stirs Anger in Nutley

It's going to be a long, ugly march to November.

Because you perceive something to symbolize a negative, does not mean that was it's intention. You seem as though you are out looking for a confrontation.

Still, it's unusual to see a Confederate flag flying up north. Someone should inform them they lost.

realistic-
If the flag has been up for years, or even before the McCain sign, than I would agree that it is just pride of the South. There is nothing wrong with that. I have friends in South Carolina who say that the flag means so much more to them than its racial meaning. However, if this is a new sign, Our friendly neighbor in Nutley is scared of a black man in office and is desperately showing it through the subtlties of a Confederate flag

In this context, realistic, I find it disturbing, and yes, not exactly unexpected.

"That little gem of ignorance came from a police officer."

The tipster seems to be the one thats ignorant in just assuming that the person is a racist.
Even if the guy is a racist, it might be creepy, and I might not agree with it, but its his right to feel anyway he wants as long as he doesnt hurt anyone or act on his views. This is America the last time I checked.

Considering that NJ is one of the most segregated states, it's funny how up and arms some get over a flag.

The fact that black folks live in mostly poor towns, lack health care and are not educated seems not to stir folks (save for the 20k per pupil for education...)--- but a confederate flag???

Who cares.... The flag is what it is: a symbol of hate to some, pride for others.

Just like the dreaded N-word.

Why don't we just ban (some) words and (some) symbols?........

(Between this and how the Obama folks are laying the groundwork for pleading racism when he loses.... Mr. Roo is wrong. It's gonna be a long, ugly march for the foreseeable future.)

Sadly, of this flag is not that unusual up north. I can still recall the day that our new neighbors from Alabama moved in. The first thing they did was hang up that flag. My family was so offended. My dad left the south and moved to NJ because of everything that flag represented and the abuse that he suffered under Jim Crow. It took a long time for us to become friendly with the new neighbors.

What Jimmytown said.

The part of NC that the misses and I frequent has a lot of those flags up and a good more than a few of them are on the porches of the African American families who have been there for ages.

So, if this flag had been a regular feature on the neighbor's property, I probably would just ignore it.

However, in this case I'd have to say it serves as a not-so-subtle declaration.

The person has the right to fly that flag if they wish, but let's not pretend it doesn't mean what it means. People don't fly the Confederate flag by accident. They seem to be the one looking for a confrontation.

"The flag is what it is: a symbol of hate to some, pride for others."

The same is true for the swastika. I saw a guy at Shea Stadium a few years ago with one of his forearm. Was it wrong that I didn't view it as a symbol of his heritage? (He was Italian based on the other tattoo, so what heritage I'm not sure)

I'm not surprised that this showed up. I've already had people tell me flat out - they won't vote for Obama because he is black. This is an interesting bit of history to be living thru.

prof-

"Who cares.... The flag is what it is: a symbol of hate to some, pride for others.

Just like the dreaded N-word"

really? What school do you teach kids that the N-word is a symbol of pride?

If my neighbors were from China and flew the Chinese Flag, would people be as offended? What about an Iranian flag? We do have the right to be proud of our place of origin.
No matter what the intentions, whether ill or not, we are an understanding nation. (or are we?)

Even if the flag were there to show pride in their Southern heritage (which given the context, I doubt), they are at least guilty of being ignorant or uncaring of the general sentiment toward the flag up here.
Different symbols, gestures, etc. mean different things depending on the area you are in. When traveling abroad, one needs to be aware of certain hand gestures not meaning the same thing as they do here.

realistic,

an Iranian or Chinese flag actually represents a country. the stars and bars represent a cultural heritage and a point of view which many northerners view as non-PC. That being said, the 1st amendment protects this display, and it's one of the freedoms we cannot take for granted and must protect.

Turn a blind eye to this little gesture and revel in the fact that we live in a free country.

OGSD

How are the Obama people laying the groundwork for using racism as an excuse, prof? 'Splain please.

Realistic-
China Flag & Iranian flag would be a good argument for the American Flag.... not the Confederate flag. You'd make a better point comparing an Israeli flag and palestinian flag waving in the gaza strip... although that would only make sense if we were still in the civil war

Maybe they just really like the show The Dukes of Hazard and its car The General Lee....

Nobody is calling for the jack-booted government forces to come and remove the confederate flag, OffGroveStreetDad. The Nutley resident has every right to fly it, just as I have every right to greet my neighbor with a raised middle finger, even though he might take the gesture as being "non-PC".

jimmy: Perhaps you unaware of the discussion in the black community re: the use of the N-word (MANY black folk use the word as a symbol of pride in "taking it back" from its common meaning). This is similar to the use of the f-word in the gay community.

Mr. roo,

Since (only) Obama has pulled the race card several times... Yes. Laying the groundwork.

While I don't think this person should be compelled to remove the flag, I'm curious as to what 'pride' is being expressed here. Pride in the confederacy? Really?

If the're so proud of their "southern heritage" why don't they fly the state flag of wherever they're from?

And, as for racism playing a part in this election, anyone who denies there are people who just won't vote for a black man is delusional. Even harder to believe that sentiment came from someone who is an African American.

While I'm sure there are some who might not vote for the African-American because he's an African-American.

I'm sure that number is offset by African-Americans and black Americans who WILL vote for him ONLY because he's African-American.

You can see this how you like.

Much like the confederate flag.

Okay, folks are getting silly and needlessly choleric again. Whomever the owner of the flag turns out to be, he/she has a perfect right to do so and to fly it (just as long as proper flag etiquette is followed with regard to the American flag taking precedence). And how come the Baristas haven't simply bothered to ask the homeowner in the first place, given that they purport to be "citizen journalists?"

Perhaps, even, the flag flyer is simply a diehard Lynyrd Skynrd or Allman Brothers fan, since I've seen plenty of Confederate regalia at their concerts. It may not even be "the" Confederate flag, since there is some difference between an "offical" flag of the late Confederacy and assorted battle flags of the Confederacy's forces.

In any case, having recently returned from SC where such displays are rather common but don't seem to arouse near-hysteria (I particlarly expected better from you, walleroo), this should not arouse such impassioned sputtering. (Put your lifejackets on if comrade laserboy gets hold of this one!) Just the graveyards alone down in Dorchester and Charleston counties, SC (including, as I noted, the local Jewish cemetery) are dappled with row upon row of the "stars and bars," and vendors of such flags and related items sit pacifically next to black female weavers of sweetgrass baskets in the Charleston market.

This is thus an exceptionally twisted version of a slow news day. But little else. And I say that, comrade lasermikhailboychik, as the proud owner of a USSR naval ensign which once flew from a destroyer from the Baltic fleet.

I'm voting for Barak because he can run the court and toss a no look pass to a teammate breaking for the hoop.

Man got some silky smooth moves. I'd choose him first in a pick up game every time.

Plus he's handsome, very well spoken and has a beautiful meniscus voice.

When I used to visit my friends in Virginia, many neighbors on their street flew the Confederate flag. My friends and I went to a concert at a local park and the emceee was kind of half-joking that he hoped there weren't any Northerners in the audience. I don't think there's anything wrong with pride in your heritage--I have an Irish Claddagh on my front door--but resenting Northerners seemed a little more than a little silly. I agree with Mrs. M they need to be informed that they lost and it's time to move on.

walleroo

I think someone did call for the "jack booted government" to take the flag away, in fact in the original blurb, it states that the resident called the police and was upset because the cops wouldn't do anything. So, not sure what you mean. Clearly, this resident expected the police to do something about this offensive gesture. Just to be clear, to me the flag is just a flag, no more or less offensive than any political sign, bumper sticker, whatever. The only part of this that is interesting is that the original complaint actually thought calling the police was warranted.

Now, if the flag had been a noose, THAT would be truly offensive and it would not be protected by the 1st amendment, as has been proven in various State and Federal court rooms in the last couple of years.

OGSD

Ah, the liberal tolerance of other viewpoints (no matter what they may be)...it does the heart good.

a confederate flag and a mccain sign..wow talk about 2 losing efforts..didn't mccain fight for the south..before he swiped "the gulag" reference about his ordeal in 'nam?

I should also add that it's very telling that the original tipster, however possessed of numbing moral outrage over this one, admits that he/she made an anonymous complaint to the police about the flag. Really, that sounds gutless if one is truly so hot and bothered, wishes to truly stand up and be counted.

Well Cathar,

You know those 'redneck' boys can deliver some serious 'whup ass' sos I'd be anonymous myself in this here sitchiation.

Gots to read "Pale Horse Coming" by Steven Hunter. It rocks.

Had the police responded to the house, would they have any right to make the resident remove the flag?
I seriously think there would be more of an uproar if they made them take it down. Although we may not agree with their thoughts and opinions, we must not take away their rights of expression.

How about this flag?

There will many displays of signs and flags, and more such as this, as our country once again demonstrates its fear-based ability to regress into the olde ignorance and intolerance..

MellonBrush, mah occasional pard, a serious ass whuppin' can also lead to an assault charge. This is the civilized North, remember. (Where, as was said during the late 60's, whites "rioted" by moving away.)

But it is also Baristaville, I acknowledge, which hardly, based on so many posts here on so many seemingly disparate topics ('Crisco Court' comes right to mind), is a place of genuine moral courage. Neither the causes nor the reactions ever merit the sort of response aroused by, say, Oradour-sur-Glane.

I read the Stephen Hunter novel about the two snipers circling each other in the ruins of Stalingrad, it was well done. I also liked his film criticism for WaPo, so thanks for the tip.

Think I'll just defer to Tim Wise on this one.

Rebels Without a Clue: Racism, Neo-Confederacy and the Raising of Historical Illiterates

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/rebelsclue2.html

There's more to southern heritage than a confederate flag. Indeed, the confederate government barely lasted for 4 years so to look back and celebrate a period of time that, historically speaking, was about as brief as a mouse fart and which represented all the worst traits of humanity, is in itself obscene, insulting, and regressive.

As Tim's friend at the end of the article said, "Just because speech is free, doesn't mean that it has to be worthless."

I wonder how many of you willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt would object to people putting Nazi flags on their porches. It's in effect the same thing: a government that existed for an extremely brief moment in time who had a message of hate and prejudice at it's core.

For the lazy

Rebels Without a Clue: Racism, Neo-Confederacy and the Raising of Historical Illiterates

Either you believe in the protections of the 1st amendment or you don't. This is not shouting "Fire" in a crowded movie theater. As soon as you start drawing distinctions, you're in murky water.

As for the specific reference of a Nazi flag, you're probably treading on the same ground there as you would with a noose. The Nazi flag represents a particular brand of anti-Semitism that has been specifically identified as a hate crime in many communities. These communities have carved out a special set of rules around hate crimes based on ethnicity, sexual orientation and race. To date, the stars and bars haven't been seen that way. Go to a NASCAR event, or watch one on TV and you'll see lots of these flags.

Pray tell, what do you think the St. Andrew's Cross stands for?

It stands for a government founded to perpetuate the institution of slavery.

Nothing more.

Please read the article I linked to.

Also, I really don't know what point you're trying to prove by referencing NASCAR fans. You can't possibly be trying to suggest they are the embodiment of racial equality, an unprejudiced mentality, and are the next evolutionary step in progressive thought.

Hopefully some politician will have the balls to do what Germany did by banning all Nazi symbols, and ban the St. Andrews' Cross as a symbol of hate, prejudice, and inequality; exactly the OPPOSITE of the values this country claims to hold so dear as the foundation of our nation.

A Confederate flag flying on a lawn, dannyboo, is one of the acceptable risks of a genuinely democratic (if not perhaps of a Democratic) society. As even the ACLU would likely attest.

If you persist in your own personal outrage, however (and really, posting something from "Counterpunch" hardly indicates rational, non-partisan sourcing, now does it?), you're certainly welcome to set an example in and for Baristaville by uprooting the offending standard all by your lonesome.

In fact, I suggest you do just that. (Feel free to take jerxseygurl with you.)

As someone else asked recently, too, why do you always post so that we can sense the clenching of your teeth? In any case, here is the perfect opportunity for you to display the true conviction of your apparent all-encompassing rage. And as OffGrove... notes wittily, you might next display the real cut of your character at a Nascar race.

And the St. Andrew's Cross (properly, it's called a "saltire"), dannybooyah, hails originally from Scotland. In fact, you can even still find it on th UK's Union Jack. It's right there, honest, and I can thus fairly safely assume that the Confederacy's founders meant it to reflect the region's Scot-Irish heritage. (About which you might read the latest non-ficiton work by the Democratic Party's own Senator James Webb of VA, who takes a rather admiring view of his "people" for their martial prowess as expressed during the Civil War and so many all-American wars afterward.)

Or would you have us ban the Union Jack too?

Only a liberal D.B. would talk about this gutter racist's right to display a Confederate battle flag.

Yup, you're right, OffGrove, I was thinking of the posters here. Calling the cops for a confederate flag is a bit much, I agree. However, I still worry about what the Obama candidacy is going to bring out.

PRFS, un-like the hi-jacking of the swastika (and the "mustache" that goes with it, at least they haven't banned laurel and Hardy movies) the "stars and bars" have a multitude of interpretations, both right and wrong. The former is just, for the most part, tied to the evil of one institution. The latter is unfortunately open to innocent connotations and is harder to pin on someone as a definite point of view of prejudice.

Like was said, Dick...do you prefer Dick or Richard?...just because speech is free doesn't mean it has to be worthless.

I'm curious as to your own personal thoughts on the confederacy. Care to share?

As for my link, it's not from Counterpunch. Counterpunch may have published it with the author's permission, but the piece would have existed even if Counterpunch didn't.

And have you read it? I'm guessing not. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the article. Without reading it you've chalked it up as irrational when it's pure common sense. And isn't chalking something up as irrational, without reading it, in and of itself irrational? Really cathar, I expect more from you than displaying that which you condemn in the very same sentence.

I think you're just arguing for argument's sake cathar. In your advanced age and retirement, there really isn't much left for you is there? Can't get it up anymore, occasionally piss yourself or shit your Depends, and with the obvious lack of shuffleboard locations in the area a spontaneous trip to Florida isn't exactly on the agenda so you have to get a rush somehow, right?

As PRFS said, only a douchebag would defend this guy's right to display a confederate flag.

Not sure what the cryptic D.B. is and not sure who you're referring to. I'm a constitutionist, not a Liberal.

The way some are meeting others' ignorance with their own hate is surprising to me, and reveals a lot.

I don't fly any flags or post any bumper stickers, but I defend your protected right to do so.

PRFS, comments above defending this person's right to fly the flag come from both sides, not just the liberal DBs. This is still America and the Constitution still applies.

What about 'music' blaring from cars espousing violent crime, degradation of women and killing of cops?

This seems to be acceptable and I think, much worse than a stupid, dinky, flag that some nitwit put on their lawn.

"As PRFS said, only a douchebag would defend this guy's right to display a confederate flag."

Then from your other first amendment posts you're saying your a self- proclaimed "douchebag"?

The confederate flag is a symbol of oppression. McCain's sign is there to win votes and along side a confederate flag it does the exact opposite. In a strange way it helps the democrats.

Oh dannyboy, the pipes....
The Union Jack consists of the cross of St. George --patron saint of England, the cross of St. Andrew, patron of Scotland, and the cross of St. Patrick, patron of Ireland. We did not ask to be included on that standard, by the way. The Welsh should be pissed, or perhaps relieved, that the cross of St. David did not make it "officially". The cross is certainly not a symbol of racism or a reference point for slavery supporters. In fact, the Jamaican flag sports the same cross, and that nation is roughly 96% African in ancestral makeup.
I agree that the presentation of the Stars and Bars in a northern setting is somewhat provocative, but it still appears to me to be a form of protected speech. And really, to attempt to counter other viewpoints with Depends and shuffleboard comments does not jibe with your purported intellectual heft. In fact, it smacks of ageism, which is an equally offensive bias.

There's the issue. Is it just a dinky flag, or in this case is the person using it as a symbol of hatred and bigotry. The first ammendement does not protect criminal acts so at what point does something become a hate crime? Is it a McCain poster plus a confederate flag during a political convention when a non-white man is about to be nominated as the candidate for his party? If this front yard also throws in a noose is that okay? If McCain chooses Lieberman and we start seeing swastikas is that okay? It's so often about context and intent -- which is why we do now have hate crime laws.

"In your advanced age and retirement, there really isn't much left for you is there? Can't get it up anymore, occasionally piss yourself or shit your Depends, and with the obvious lack of shuffleboard locations in the area a spontaneous trip to Florida isn't exactly on the agenda so you have to get a rush somehow, right?"

Gosh, you really are a prententious twit, aren't you? Can you make a cogent argument about ANYTHING without the personal attacks? Apparently not.

Can't get it up anymore, occasionally piss yourself or shit your Depends, and with the obvious lack of shuffleboard locations in the area a spontaneous trip to Florida isn't exactly on the agenda so you have to get a rush somehow, right?

You're a class act, dannyboo.

Well MellonBrush, since 80% of rap consumers are white kids from the suburbs, maybe you should take it up with their politician and police officer fathers.

Pokey, what first amendment posts?

Let's get to the point. Republicans have a reputation for being racists. They are a lily white party, their policies enrich and protect a white elite ruling class, and statements made by their propaganda wing are overtly racists. The Democrats are better than the Republicans in this regard. Then again Democrats enrich and protect a white elite ruling class too.

The fact the you get to spew.

The = that

LM: I don't think either political party is exempt from racism. And, both parties are filled with elitists of every hue and color.

laserdiddlyspew, a prime example of first amendment in action.

At the risk of giving away my age...I watched Dick Cavett when I was youn and this reminds me of the show that had Lester Maddox, Truman Capote and Jim Brown on as guests at the same time. I'll never forget it.

Dannyboo,

You need to cut back on the caffeine dude. Your vitriol will consume you. Maybe it already has.

Your spiel against Cathar had neither wit nor any trace of humor. It was juvenile and offensive.

If anyone is interested in contemporary southern views of the civil war, I would suggest reading "onfederates in the Attic" by Tony Horwitz. As pointed out in the book, in the south, it?s the only place where they erect statues to the losers.

Dannybooyah, I did in fact read the article you referenced. And I read it as posted by "Counterpunch" because, well, try as I might, I simply couldn't locate "Lip" magazine. Pray tell, is it on your own shelf?

As to what I made of the story, it was predictable rant. Much like your own posts, limited in emotional range, depth and accuracy. You know, danny, kind of like your own amative life.

And while you might rate me as "old," danny, as it happens I correspndingly see you as someone who simply needs to grow up. A lot. Your aspersions on the saltire were simply embarassing (I in fact "pissed" rather artfully on how little you actually know about the topic, pretty good for an oldish guy, no?), and smacked of the worst form of uneducated bigotry. Just don't try this stuff in Scotland, those SNP members are rather fiercely protective of their national iconography, love punching out ill-mannered Americans.

Worst of all - and this one is irremediable, I fear - you simply have no class. As you insist on establishing post after post.

If anyone is interested in contemporary southern views of the civil war, I would suggest reading "Confederates in the Attic" by Tony Horwitz. As pointed out in the book, in the south, it's the only place where they erect statues to the losers.

And the party of Lincoln, mikey, was in fact the Republican party. Whereas the party of, for openers, Faubus, Leander Perez, Heflin, Bilbo and especially of the Klan (right down to former Kleagle Robert Byrd, who sits shakily in the Senate to this very day), was the Democratic party.

You know, laserlumpenprole, if you keep your current vein of "class-warfare" posts up, I may just stop responding altogether. In which event your corresponding "fame" here, so much of which depends on the reasoned responses to your idiocy by such as myself, will just dry up completely. Do you really want that, comrade lasermikhailboychik?

MM, the policies put forth by the Republican party directly harm African Americans and the Latinos. Democrats might not be very helpful but they are not directly attacking minorities like the Republican party has. Has New Orleans been rebuilt? Only the tourist sections. Why has the Republican party been working to increase the penalties against undocumented workers and at the same time absolving corporations for illegal and substandard labor practices involving undocumented workers?

MM - I said I would not attack personally unless provoked. I held up my end of the bargain however by your attacking me, I see you don't hold yourself to the same high standard you desire to hold me to. Thanks for proving to me what a shallow husk of a person you are and how little value your word holds. Can't say I didn't expect it though.

The root of the confederate flag is irrelevant. Remove the Union Jack from the equation. It has nothing to do with the confederacy. Conjuring up it's Scottish roots is a poor attempt to dilute the meaning behind the confederate flag when the truth of the matter is that if there were no confederacy, the flag on that lawn would not exist. Period.

If this guy is so concerned with celebrating his Scottish heritage, then why not skip the nonsense and just display the white saltire on a light blue field? If he's English, then display the Union Jack.

And the very fact that William Porcher Miles changed the flag from an upright cross to a saltire to change it's meaning from a religious symbol to a heraldic 'coat of arms' for the Confederacy proves that the very designer of the flag wanted to disassociate it's meaning from any religious context, contrary to the very reason the Scottish adopted the saltire in honor of St. Andrew in the first place.

The flag represents an oppressive government and inhumane ideal. Showing that flag reflects it's bearer's agreement with those ideals.

Oh give me a break. Does neighbor have the right to fly that flag? Of course he does. Do we have the right to say it's almost surely racist? Of course we do.

All this and you're still lacking in basic grammar skills too, dannybooyah.

Viv wins.

Cathar, you too are lacking in basic grammar skills. "Whomever the owner of the flag turns out to be, he/she has a perfect right to do so and to fly it ..." The verb to be never takes an object. Should be "whoever."

Interesting theory, lasertwiddle. I suppose the current Republican administration's AIDS relief program in Africa would be an outlier.

Busted!

dannyboo, you had promise at some point as a voice of some semblance of reason, now you just rant in a very limited way.
The confederate flag is but one example of using pre-existing symbolism is a completely different context. This is still the most defiling, swastika.

Viv's cut through all the bullshit and whittled the topic down to it's bottom line. Bravo!

Stewie, I'm an engineer. Grammar has no bearing on my profession so I make no apologies for grammatical mistakes.

You however, are, or were a writer by profession and as ViV has pointed out, in your grammatical analysis of me, have committed errors of your own that the avoidance of is the foudnation of your profession. It's no wonder no one has read any of your work. On here you may come off as eloquent but judging by your own grammatical errors, were probably nothing more than average at best in your profession.

And is that all you really have no? Attacking someones' grammar on an informal blog?

Like I said, however you can get your kicks nowadays...

Avoidance 101 = ....

Thanks, dannyboo. But all I did was rephrase what State Street Pete wrote earlier.

Mr.ANONYMOUS stop your whining and go over two doors down and burn that Flag.

"Has New Orleans been rebuilt?"

No, but again, I blame both parties for that, not just the Republicans. We happen to have a Republican President in The White House right now but what about all the Democratic do-gooders? Where are they? The only one I see out there is Brad Pitt.

"It's almost surely racist".
Well, one could certainly feel better being led to the gallows knowing that his/her judges had determined that he/she was "almost surely guilty".
This community, this country, and this world will be far better places once folks come to the realization that they have no particular insight as to the inner workings of an individual they haven't even laid eyes on, and that they have no qualification entitling them to determine the morality of those strangers. Meet the flag displayer, talk with him/her a bit, and then decide whether he or she is a racist, or simply a Charlie Daniels fan or a Citadel graduate or some such. Otherwise, you're just assuming, and in so doing you're not far removed from the mob yourself.
Danny, grammar SHOULD count in every profession. One can be sanctmonious and laughably hypocritical about it -- like one poster on this blog is with regularity -- but one can also properly hold the view that effective communication raises the level of dialogue and aids greatly in making one's argument understandable.
This whole issue is really the proverbial tempest in a teapot. The issue itself has taken a back seat to the reactions it has provoked.

MM - Jimmy Carter? Harry Connick Jr. ? The Henry J. Kaiser Foundation.Gobal Green. There are people working to rebuild New Orleans. Mostly a lot of non-profits. Most of the restitution money hasn't come through, FEMA should have never had Brown in charge. That can be put squarely on the shoulders of Bush.

Habitat for Humanity, Oprah's Angel network, my sister on spring break...the list of do gooders goes on.

Do-gooders would seem to be a personal attack on an entire party of people. I guess that is in place of a cogent argument.

Sorry, just hatin' on liberals today. Just force of habit.

It's interesting that liberals/left wing/ whatever you want to call people who feel the need to fact injustices and address them --- are now called "do-gooders" as an insult. What we should we all be, do-badders? Do-nothings? Say you don't agree with the policies, the plans, whatever. But to insult people for caring about the environment and other humans puts the whole argument in a place that is really too sad to comtemplate.

It's interesting that liberals/left wing/ whatever you want to call people who feel the need to fact injustices and address them --- are now called "do-gooders" as an insult. What we should we all be, do-badders? Do-nothings? Say you don't agree with the policies, the plans, whatever. But to insult people for caring about the environment and other humans puts the whole argument in a place that is really too sad to comtemplate.

fact=face.

You've totally missed my point. (Again). I wasn't putting down do-gooders. I was merely pointing out that there are do-gooders from both political parties. And, might I add, people from both parties who do bad things, too. The world is not just black and white, there's room for gray, too.

No one missed the point. It's in print, in English, above.

But (see link) the City of Boston rushed to remove a flag *thought* (incorrectly) to be a Black Panthers symbol.

Granted, it was on city property, where such legacies of cultural history may not belong, but, let's discuss: What would have been the response in Nutley if a neighbor had raised the red-nlack-and-green with a raised fist?

Or if someone were to fly a Nazi flag or one of the Khmer Rouge (such as the one at the UN)? True, they have the right to display these flags but as Viv so coherently pointed out, others have the right to condemn them.

I would say that since whites in this country have never been owned by blacks and have always been in charge it is not likely to have the same effect. Wanting to have more power and acceptance as a race is not quite the same as thinking you get to own people who are a different color. The Back Panther movement was a reaction to racism, not the cause of it.

Walleroo, while the current administration is to be applauded for initiating the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, the program remains hamstrung by insane and idiotic fundamentalist ideology.

A third of the money still goes to abstinence education, despite all evidence that it doesn't work. They still refuse to fund clean needles for IV drug addicts.

It's a start, but it's terribly unfortunate that they're wasting precious resources by clinging to their religious fanatacism even in this initiative.

(This is too heavy for a lazy August day....)

Best song of this Summer:

Kid Rock's ALL SUMMER LONG.

Which uses the great hook from Sweet Home Alabama!!!

Best lines:

"It was 1989, my thoughts were short my hair was long"

"We didn't have no internet
But man I never will forget
The way the moonlight shined upon her hair"

"Sipping whiskey out the bottle,
not thinking 'bout tomorrow
Singing Sweet Home Alabama all summer long"

Okay, go back to whatever it was jerseygurl's upset with.......

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!

Where the skies are so blue
And the governor's true
Sweet Home Alabama
Lordy
Lord, I'm coming home to you
Yea, yea Montgomery's got the answer

Although I do love The Hold Steady ? Sequestered in Memphis:

"In bar-light, she looked all right;
In daylight, she looked desperate
That?s all right, I was desperate, too"

"Subpoenaed in Texas, sequestered in Memphis"

Prof,

Are you listening to 101.9?

They play that song incessantly. I hated it at first, but kind of like it now. Reminds me a bit of Springsteen with the piano and all.

Or, to be more relevant...

Virgil Caine is the name, and I served on the Danville train 'til Stoneman's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again

In the winter of '65, We were hungry, just barely alive

By May the tenth, Richmond had fell, it's a time I remember oh so well

The night they drove old Dixie down, and all the bells were ringing

The night they drove old Dixie down, and all the people were singin'

They went Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na, Na...

The rest of their stuff is good too. And they're nice guys.

Tolerating these things is one of the costs of true freedom of expression. We should be thankful that the ignorant sometimes choose to identify themselves in this fashion.

Well I used to wake the morning
Before the rooster crowed
Searchin for soda bottles
To make myself some dough
Run 'em down to the corner
Down to the corner store
Cash 'em in and give my money to a man named Curtis Lowe

Old Curt was a black man with white curly hair.
When he had a fifth of wine
He did not have a care
He used to own an old Dobro
Used to play it cross his knee
I'd give old Curt some money and he'd play all day for me.

Play me a song Curtis Lowe, Curtis Lowe.
I got your drinkin money
Tune up your Dobro
People said you was useless
Them people all were fools
Cause, Curtis your the finest picker to ever play the blues.

Well said, TS.

Mm, salami. I want a sammich.

MellonBrush,

I only listen to 107.1 The Peak or bounce around to different stations on the sat radio.... And strangely, ending up on the 70's stations singing breezy songs sung by cool dudes with beards... And some cool chicks with feathered hair...

That's a good one Cathar. Defending the Confederate Flag by citing the number of Jewish Confederate graves adorned with that flag and then simultaneously citing the Scots-Irish roots of said flag.

It is certain that most of those Charleston Jews were of Sephardic origin (after fleeing the tyranny and torture hosted by the Spanish Catholic Church) . I guess they didn't herald from the Ol' Sod after all.

But gee, Cathar, since you mentioned the Allman Brothers, let's cue up a good ol' Duane and Greg tune.

I vote for Whipping Post, how about you?

..now you're with one of my good time buddies, drinking in some cross town bar..

Leave it to Perlstein to drag us back into Confederate hell.......;)

Oh, well.

Hannity's on. I have to get my talking points!

Prof,

ZZ Top? Pat Benatar?

ZZ Top "Just Got Paid"
Pat Benatar "Heartbreaker"

Oh yeah!

Well Prof, take good notes so you can come back with pearls like "hollywood do gooders", "empty suit", and "B. Hussein".

I don't recall the "Back Panther movement," jerseygurl. Were they as much "nice guys" as the Band? As the three who didn't die as a result of suicide and drug and alcohol abuse, that is? I also never met a Black Panther (and I've met a few) whom I ever thought was remotely committed to a peaceful, multi-racial future.

I, J.Perlstein, merely noted the diligence of the SCV and DCV ("... of Confederate veterans") in decorating veterans' graves, whatever the war at issue. And whether or not they descended from Sephardim. It was you who sounded the (predictable here, I supppose wearily) note of the socially acceptable "anti-Semitism of the left," otherwise known as anti-Catholicism.

But I also recall Judah P. Benjamin as a servant of the Confederacy. In any event, too, Webb's (and he is, I must remind, likely a member of your preferred party, cerainly not of mine) book celebrates a Scots-Irish warrior caste, and in no small part for what he approvingly cites as their willingness to die. As Southerners continue to do for their country, I hasten to add.

That you wish to celebrate your own possible liking for what the French term "la vice Anglais," however, is no concern of my own. You are much welcome to your whipping post, and even to Elizabeth Reed if you can find her.

"Sorry, just hatin' on liberals today. Just force of habit.

Posted by Mrs. Martta | August 26, 2008 2:00 PM"

Knee-jerk neocon.

Whew... He's on a commercial. Here's what I got so far:

America is a "downright mean Country"
-- M. Obama

"For the first time, I am proud of my country."
--M. Obama

Bitter Americans "cling to guns or religion"
--- B.H. Obama

Strange. These talking points consist mainly of quotes from the Obama's themselves.

I'll keep listening......

Its not bad enough to die of cancer way too early, but to have the hook from your song "Werewolves of London" incorrectly identified and credited to Skynard by the prof is really more than Warren Zevon deserves.

"Professor" -- you're really going to have to stop lecturing on proper punctuation if you insist on making such blatant errors as putting an apostrophe before an "s" intended to make the name "Obama" plural.

Dannybooyah, grammar has great bearing on how you present yourself to the world ("informal blog" or wherever). As I noted above, you have no class. Worse, you boast of it.

Thus are no good advertisement for the profession of "engineer," let alone as a presumptive voice of liberal chastisement. You also, quite distressingly, utterly lack a real sense of ironic humor. Still, if you you wish to trot alongside Comrade lasermikhailboychik in this fashion....

And that I clearly sent you to Wikipedia this very day in search of enlightenment re the saltire, well, I just view that as yet another indication of your comparative callowness, sonny.

Cathar - the nice guys post was about the Hold Steady. Whatever the Panthers may have eventually devolved into, it was initally formed as a reaction to oppression.

J. Perlstein, a little time spent in looking into the history of the old south, especially Charleston, would reveal the fact that Jewish merchants were just as eager to enjoy the profits engendered by slavery as were their Gentile neighbors.
God made us all prone to vice, my friend -- chosen or no.

I don't see how handing out antiretrovirals to HIV-infected children and adults is a waste of resources, KatiebirdRex. You are off base here. Bush is a hero in sub-Saharan Africa, for good reason. Give credit where it's due.

Cathar, I cite the rather dismal and barbaric performance of the Spanish Catholic Church 516 years ago. The present day Catholic Church has come very far from those days, no?

But, hey, how' bout that Duane solo on Elizabeth Reed?

Once again all you liberals are being complete hypocrites in regards to freedom of speech... You claim to believe and support in Freedom of Speech..... but only if it's something you agree with. This just undermines the whole idea of Freedom of Speech and just shows that you idiots are using your double standards as usual. You are always looking to jump down white people's throats and accuse them of being racists whenever any issue comes up even something as miniscule as in this case. You have no right to judge this man, he may be from the South just having pride in wherever he's from. And to illustrate your absurd liberal ideas and double standards, you liberals would probably be perfectly fine with a black man with a "Kill Whitey" sign on his lawn. You liberals are the reason why Americans and especially White Americans
are losing their First Amendment Rights. You all should be ashamed of yourselves !!! Liberals are the real racists and they hate white people!!!

Croiagusanam, If you are suggesting that I am defending Jewish conduct in the old South, you are mistaken.

Walleroo - handing out retroviral drugs is not at all a waste, but since we're talking about a deadly disease that is preventable it seems some money spent on prevention would make more sense than spending a lot more money on the very expensive palliatives.

You're an excellent writer, Nobama, don't let anyone tell you any different.

Nobama, you are full of hate.

Jerseygurl, a common delusion amongst white liberals is that the Panthers were formed as a "reaction against oppression." The historical record shows quite clearly (read, say, their old supporter David Horowitz's recollections of those heady days), however, that they were actually formed to facilitate Huey P. Newton's drug-taking and drug-using, and also to provide a kind of moral screen for Eldridge Cleaver's justification of his unslaked, best-selling interest in raping women (and of ANY color).

J. Perlstein, the litany of horrors attributed to the Spanish Inquisition has been refuted forcefully by many historians over the last 30 or so years. Even by one fortuitously named Norman Cohen. Things may still have been "bad," in other words, but they were never "that bad." You may now go back to resting against that whipping post of yours....

I think that's don't let nobody tell you no different. That is probably one of the most shocking posts I've ever read here. I'm sure glad Nobama is on their side. Mrs M., Cathar, care to claim this as one of your own?

Jeez,

cro,

Kid Rock's genius is that he uses both Sweet Home and warewolves in the song, and while Werewolves is used for the versus, the hook uses the backbeat of Sweet Home. (The "break" uses it exclusively). Which is why he uses the Sweet Home lyrics-- get it?

Genius!

(So perhaps Mr. Zevon really didn't need his name/death used to make a wrong point on an anonymous post.)

Versus = verses, no?

Goldangit, I already changed my name from "Kate" so you guys would stop mixing me up with katie, and now you're already calling me "KatiebirdRex!" Wah.

Anyway. Walleroonietoons, I did give credit where it's due, if you re-read my comment. Providing ARV meds to infected people is a good thing. A very good thing.

But there also needs to be an evidence-based prevention component, meaning condom and clean needle education. They are wasting a *full third* of the program budget on abstinence education, although every public health group in the region has told them it's ineffective.

Do you like having your tax dollars wasted? I don't.

And warewolves=werewolves.

I'm sure, jerseygurl, that "Nobama" is morely likely a stalking horse for your side. The extremism is probably a out-on, in other words.

So while I would never claim him/her for "my" political affinity group, I wonder if you similarly disavow the sentiments of so many Democrats down through American history. Can I have an "amen" for Orville Faubus? For the Klansmen serving as delegates who derailed Al Smith's candidacy more than once? For the "Kleagle years" of Senator Robert Byrd?

At times, jg, you add estreme silliness to your usual offering up of simple lack of comprehension. In any case, too, I would expect you, in the spirit of Voltaire, to defend "Nobama's" right to post here whatever nonsense he/she offers up. I mean, you already post regularly.

See! What'd I tell you!

Two more months...

Cathar - 1. I am not a Democrat. 2. It is 2008 and the party lines have shifted in the last 40 years.

Traubert,

My lecturing will continue. And here's one: you should work on your reading comprehension as I've said too many times that typos and simple mistakes are of no worry.

If I were to lecture on every mistake here, I'd have no time for Big Brother 10!

As it stands, for you, I will reiterate. My problem is constant mistakes and disdain for proper grammar-- much as a result of texting.

That I, or anyone else, makes a dumb mistake is to be expected (since like most, I am furiously typing away and waiting for my pearls to post).

This lecture is free. The next will cost you. And my rate is VERY HIGH.

"I'm sure glad Nobama is on their side. Mrs M., Cathar, care to claim this as one of your own?"

Sure, if you claim Lasermike and Guido Santa as part of your tribe.

Oh, keep your shirt on. Of course the obsession with abstinence is silly and wasteful. But not as much as you think. Abstinence education actually has helped reduce the incidence of HIV in Africa. And the Bush money that goes to abstinence has freed up a lot of dough from other NGOs to do good things, like provide condoms.

Why not just forget the Kate part and register as Rex?

I like "warewolves," it's very good even if inadvertent.

I'd like to see you try and collect.

Your mistakes are, in fact, constant. I actually like them though, because your hypocrisy makes me laugh. Rock on, baby!

I'd like to see you try and collect, Prof.

Keep it going, though -- your hypocrisy brightens my day.

Rock on!

Ware - the noun, the adjective or the transitive verb?

Sorry all, for the double post.

Since you claim not to be a Democrat, jerseygurl (by which I'm guessing you mean not an officially registered one), may I then assume you stand proudly with such self-proclaimed "progressives" as Comrade lasermikhailboychik? If so, you're naturally much welcome to his ilk.

Yes, too, it is 2008, and I look forward to 8 more years of a Republican Presidency. Also, while party lines may have shifted somewhat (yep, we took in Strom Thurmond, you got Pat Leahy, a trade of equal non-importance to both parties, I'd submit), the Democrats still provide a cozy home for Senator Byrd. Even in his very public dotage. Plus ca change...., eh?

Well, I happen to like posting under my real name. It helps remind me to play fair.

A "constant" mistake would of course be the demon of apostrophes (or as prof would write, apostrophe's). He struggles mightily with this concept, but has shown some improvement lately.
But no matter. Prof's errors are "typos", and they occur due to his rush to get his pearls out to the public. That explains "versus" and "warewolves". Or, perhaps it is his Blackberry -- that's been suggested as well.
In short, his rants against sloppy writing do not apply to his own sloppy writing!
It is simple, isn't it?

Not to be confused with the Wearwolf...

Traubert, hypocrisy?

Were, ware, where?

I make pletnty of mistakes. I never said I didn't.

But what don't you understand about constant and text-speech?

Oh, wait...

Right.... You were playing GOTCHA!

Poor me... Stung in my corner...

In a few months, Obama will make it all better...

"I make pletnty of mistakes..."

God, how I hope that was on purpose. You kill me, man.

> 8 more years of a Republican Presidency

600,000 dead in Iraq.
3,000 dead US military.
3,000 dead New Orleans.
3,000 dead WTC.
Illegal wire taps.
Torture.
Wars of aggression.
Unconstitutional and illegal executive orders.

Bush's legacy = McCain's mandate.

Don't forget the impending Cheez Doodle panic of '09.

Liberals are the real racists and they hate white people!!!

Posted by Nobama08 | August 26, 2008 3:54 PM

(Rush Limbaugh talking point, frequently repeated in posts on the internet. Of course Rush has many talking points, often contradictory)

Tom...

Ugh....

YES!!! You got it.

Working hard here to keep it light (lite?) in August.

Better yet pal, you strike me as someone who would rather I simply say, you are sooooo right... Really... All of your points are clear, smart and correct (sir!)...

However, this yummy peach here has my interest.

Cathar, I have no doubt you are pleased with Bush and his reign over this republic. I also think it's most likely we'll see another 4 years of tired, bitter, old, rich and out of touch white guys running things. So even if you win, we all still lose.

Where are all these rich, white guys everyone's talking about? Do they want to adopt me?

Prof is keeping it "light in August".

And so he's brought us full circle, for surely Faulkner had a rebel flag or two around the manse.
Good job, prof!
Now, run out and read the book.

I'm still fascinated by NoBama's comment,

"Liberals hate white people".

So NoBama, do you mean Liberals hate ALL white people?

Wow. That must be half the planet! Shame on those liberals!

That is, if you consider Mexicans, Turks, Bulgarians, Arabs, Jews, Persians, Bangladeshis, etc, as "white people". Do you, NoBama?

Or, perhaps, you define "white" in a special way.

Oh, the blather. Those two fueding here should get signed up for a cage match.

Personally, I miss the MIA/POW flag that used to fly over the WWII memorial.

89 names at the bottom of that flag pole died for the first amendment, among other freedoms.

Oh, the blather. Those two fueding here should get signed up for a cage match.

Personally, I miss the MIA/POW flag that used to fly over the WWII memorial.

89 names at the bottom of that flag pole died for the first amendment, among other freedoms.

Sorry for the double post. This is a lot faster than it used to be.

Has Mathilda resurfaced as Nobama08? If so, I liked Mathilda better.

The prof must be fat and have a sticky keyboard, given how often he refers to eating while he's posting.

May I suggest that the Nutley neighbors all fly the Stars and Stripes in response? And perhaps signs that cheerfully say:

One Nation
Under God
Indivisible
With liberty
And justice
For all!

The law can't force someone to take down the flag of slavery and sedition. Other individuals, though, can make it quite clear that patriotism and principle are the dominant sentiments in that particular block.

Dopey, but no big deal. It got the conversation started in the direction it was intended by just another race baiter.

Laserboy, someday you might wish to enumerate some of the things that make you happy.

Don't do it just for me, however. Do it for the folks out there who aren't quite convinced yet you're nuts.

I of course remain confident that you can't do it. There seems no capacity at all in your narrow, flinty heart for joy or enjoyment in anything but mounting casualty figures.

Let's review the Democrats and there roster of tired old rich white guys....biden, kennedy, kerry, clinton, corzine, reid, durbin...i think we can rest our case that the dems represent the old white rich guys with the multitude of houses, hollywood elite jets and lavish parties. Sometimes i wish i could party like a democrat.

You are being very selective, Ice. Most of the Senate (since all the names you listed are all present or former Senators), from both sides of the aisle, could be referred to as "old white rich guys".

Besides, you'd probably be better off partying like a Republican. Then you get all the cool drugs, like Oxycontin. You know, that old white guy Rush Limbaugh's party drug.

J Perlstein -

Here is what I have observed. "Racism" has been taken up as a cause by some conservatives (Rush chief among them) as a way to criticize "liberals" (or Democrats).

Rush has played the race card with these specific arguments ~

1) Democrats harp on racism because they want to bash America.

Part of the argument is that want to shame America for past failings and sometimes he says racism doesn't really exist to a significant degree anymore but these people want to say that it does to criticize America.

2) A second tact is to say that liberals want a minority candidate because it makes them feel good and assuages their inner guilt (or some such silliness). This way Rush can contend it's "the liberals" who make distinctions based on race.

3) Another theme is that Obama gets special treatment because of his race - saying that it is not "politically correct" to criticize Obama because of his race. This kind of ties into the affirmative action backlash phenomenon. A nice component of this agrument is that by being critical of Obama you are showing that you are above race - that race doesn't matter.

4) Another common theme that Rush expounds is that Democrats are exclusive and dogmatic, while Republicans are more open to diversity. From there he will add, almost as an aside sometimes, that that includes race.

5) Rush also buys into the theory that social programs dis-empower the poor and that minority leaders use race, racial identity and poverty to bring about negative social outcomes (crime and broken families). By promoting "self-reliance" (cutting social program spending) conservatives favor policies that are actually more beneficial to the poor and minorities, in his view. By extension, you could say they are are more supportive of minorities.

I find many people parroting these general themes. But because (in my opinion), Rush never really develops or proves these ideas the parroting generally conveys the final conclusions (as if they were givens).

I think Rush is happy with that outcome. He seems to want to promote divisiveness and animosity.

These have been my observations - from listening to him and then seeing his general ideas repeated.

BTW, I agree with Mrs. Martta -

"I don't think either political party is exempt from racism. And, both parties are filled with elitists of every hue and color."

Posted by Mrs. Martta

***

I think blanket labeling of any political constituency ("liberal" or "conservative") as "racist" is going to be inaccurate and counter-productive.

Former, I think guys like Ice think you just proved their point of view is "right".

db has joined gs in the douchebag hall of lame

So what if the guy wants to wave the Rebel flag. Who gives a crap. It shouldn't make the tipster so pissed that he calls the cops. Live and let live. Who cares. Don't look. Freedom for all. What the hell is going on here where some P.C. ass feels that his idea of what is correct should be imposed on everyone.

jerseygurl -

I was picking up on Nobama08's original post,

on my comment that he was repeating a Rush slogan,

and on J Perlstein's post at 5:40 (which was also directed to the same Nobama08 comment).

----------

I wasn't really looking to comment on anything Ice had said.

Let the guy fly his Confederate flag. He pines for the 19th Century, which for him apparently represents the good old days. The US Constitution promises freedom of expression, even if it's from the stone age.

It is a symbol of Southern heritage, a part of our nation?s history and also a tribute to those who gave their lives to protect a way of life they so passionately believed in during that time. Why is everything viewed as ?racist?? Enough already.

I feel the need to make a statement. I am not the poster who uses Nobama08. Let us be clear: I am not a hateful person, as Nobama08 apparently is. I shall continue my crusade here for a greener earth because it is a matter of life and death. Otherwise I wouldn't be caught dead talking to you pissants. I only do it to save Gods other creatures; I could do without most of the people, frankly. But hateful? No, never.

I just love ya, Mathilda.

mathilda - I'm pretty sure that most of us think your heart is in the right place and that indeed you are mainly concerned with making this world a better place (or preserving the beauty that remains).

On the other hand, when your pastoral visions are questioned you have become a bit misanthropic (I'm just saying, in case you weren't aware of it yourself).

But keep posting! Your voice helps round out the choir. The baristanet is an equal opportunity pissant forum.

jerseygurl...what is going on...r u that shallow as to think those of us on 'right' don't have any personal opinion but rather look to Rush for our talking points? What is so hard for u to understand that we have different views on the role of the federal govt in our life. It isn't personal or judgemental against you and other dems. We agree to disagree on how manage the country. It seems the liberals are all about stereotyping and labeling those with different views. So we disagree...does that make me mysoginistic(sp), racist, homophobic?

> It seems the liberals are all about stereotyping and labeling those with different views.

ahem....

Post, what way of life was that?

Because let's be clear, the Civil War was about state's rights for sure, however there was only one state right under scrutiny; the right to own slaves.

What's always cracked me up is the brainless soldiers who fought on the Confederate side for the rich white elite's right to own slaves.

As Tim Wise said:

Oh sure, neo-Confederates yelp at such a suggestion, insisting that the Confederate Battle Flag has nothing to do with slavery or racism. In fact, they argue, since the flag was really only a battle standard, and not an official flag of the Confederate States of America, it can't even be seen as representative of the government itself. So, even if one accepts that the Confederacy was founded on the basis of racism and for the purpose of maintaining slavery -- and indeed this was the position of their leaders, to a person -- the modern day confederates insist that the battle flag only represents the noble and gallant efforts of their ancestors in warfare, and holds no deeper ideological or practical meaning than this. To hear the neo-confederates tell it, the brave boys who fell on the fields of battle were not interested in slavery, as very few of them owned any, but rather were fighting in defense of home and hearth, for regional pride and the heritage of their people, which they saw as threatened by an overzealous federal government.

But even as neo-confederates try valiantly to duck the meaning of their iconography, their efforts flounder on the shoals of both common sense and history. After all, the idea that the motives of soldiers themselves -- even if they do differ from the government for which they fight -- somehow alter the underlying meaning of the battles in which they engage, is fanciful in this or any other war. Soldiers, after all, are not the ones who determine either when they fight, or for what purpose they do so. As such, the notion that the Confederate Army fought for such noble principles as defense of homeland, or regional pride, or other similarly abstract notions amounts to little more than wishful thinking at best, and a deceptive fraud at worst. Armies fight for their respective governments, and for whatever purposes the elected officials of those governments choose to send them.

If the Confederate leadership said (and it did, with disturbing clarity and a complete lack of misgiving) that its reasons for secession had to do with the desire to maintain and extend slavery, and that white supremacy was its "cornerstone" (in the words of CSA Vice-President Alexander Stephens), then THAT is the purpose for which the soldiers were fighting. They could have thought they were fighting for mommy, teddy bears and cornbread, but it wouldn't have made it so. Likewise, in the present, soldiers may think (and apparently some still do) that they are in Iraq to avenge September 11, but if so, this speaks only to their own self-delusion, and that instilled by their Commander-in-Chief. It says nothing whatsoever about why they are actually there, and why they may ultimately die. That soldiers find themselves the victims of a monstrous con, whether in the 1860s, or nearly a century and a half later, is regrettable to be sure, but it does not allow us to reinterpret the purposes to which their sacrifices were put, merely so that we may feel better about them--about us.

This may be unsettling to those Southerners who feel compelled to honor "Ol' great, great grandpappy Beauregard," or some such wretch of a patriarch, but their discomfort in having to confront the truth of the matter hardly makes it any less true. Fact is, great, great grandpappy died for a lie: the lie of white supremacy, whether or not he believed in it (and of course, truth be told, he did, to the letter, so let us not kid ourselves). There is no honor in that, and nothing at all worth commemorating, except insofar as we may use the sacrificing of our kinfolk on the altar of such evil, as an opportunity to resolve that we will do whatever it takes to smash that altar entirely.

It's constantly being assumed to be frothing, bleeding heart, do gooders, tree hugging, liberal, and all the other names tossed in the direction of everyone who doesn't ride the elephant that makes that party seem cartoonish at times.

In my circle of friends half the people calling themselves McCain supports don't even vote. They act like they do, they talk a good game, but on that Tuesday something always happens and they never make it to the polls.

They are also a bunch of pot smoking, slackers whose parents money bail them out year after year - which does explain to me why they love W - he makes then think they too can be President one day.

Ice, I am niether shallow nor do I believe all conservatives get their talking points from Rush Limbaugh. Most true political conservatives and libertarians do believe the Federal Government should have a smaller role in our lives and in a fairly straightforward interpretation of Constitution. The current administration is a bunch of radical neo-conservatives who have trampled the constitution in their excessive grabs for more executive power and have also crossed the line regarding the separation of state and religion having brought even MORE of the Federal Government into our personal lives. Which brings us to Rush. All the talking points I have seen you post belie your statement that you believe the goverment should have a smaller role in our lives and points to the fact that you get those points from whackos like Rush who play into people's worst fears. Terms like "Hollywood do gooders", "empty suit" and a number of other of your comments come straight out of the Rush playbook. I have no idea if you are a homophobe, or a racist or a misogynist. I certainly know all conservatives are not. However I do believe that people like Rush, who has made a career out of spewing hatred and vitriol and pandering to people's fears of the "other" are indeed misogynistic homophobic and racist liars.

Cop slams protester at Denver DNC convention.

YouTube Link

I always thought of Rush Limbaugh as more of an entertainer than a pundit. He says things deliberately to agitate people because he knows that will bring him ratings. Yes, once in a awhile, he'll make a good point, but as with a solar eclipse, it's a rare occasion.

Meanwhile, Obama and his ilk are doing everything in their power NOT to make me vote for them. This is the candidate--and the party to a large degree--of higher taxes, including capital gains taxes. He holds a reprehensible, socialistic view of "shared wealth." No thanks...I work too damn hard for my money.

That video of the CodePink protest is an embarrassment.

Especially after all the smack we've been talking about China during the Olympics.

I would like to know what that woman photographed that made the sheriff react in such an out-of-control way.

That video of the CodePink protest is an embarrassment.

Especially after all the smack we've been talking about China during the Olympics.

I would like to know what that woman photographed that made the sheriff react in such an out-of-control way.

Mrs. M - You have to be very very very wealthy indeed or a large corporation in order to share. I think he's talking about giving back some of the breaks the folks in the top 1% get.

I wish it were so, JG, but I think he's referring to people in lower income brackets as well. At any rate, I don't like "forced sharing."

No excuse. She tiny. He's a gorilla. It's assault.

I don't think asking people who make 20 million dollars a year to give back some tax breaks forced sharing. Interesting that when people with LOTS of money are asked to pay taxes everyone screams socialism yet when they get excessive breaks and corporations get bail outs somehow that's how a democracy should work. Oh well.

I hnestly can't wait for Mccain to win. I'm going to remember this time - when it was all boo hoo Obama wants our money.

When gas iss $5 a gallon and heating oil is up yet another $1 a gallon over last year I'm going to be the biggest STFU in-your-face-girl. I will be so rude that I am apologizing now.

When the taxes go up for us working suckers - (like they did in Bush seniors Read my lips No New Taxes administration) - I will be yelling at my friends who supported for McOil.

Unfortunately hrhppg I said the same thing last two times. Ask DH - told him the combination of SUV's and dependence on oil would send oil prices through the roof, the cost of everything would go up, the housing market would crash because no one was watching the banks and we'd wind up in some freakin' disaster in the Middle East. Here we are. I further predict if McCain starts slipping in polls - or just stays even we will invade Iran. Wag the dog.

But Mrs. M, what do you mean by "a reprehensible, socialistic view of "shared wealth."

Stuff like public education and the fire department?

Public works and parks?

The EPA and the FDA and OSHA to protect our health and well-being?

Subsidized college loans?

Don't the well-off and the very well off get huge benefits from all the services our Government provides too?

OK Folks,

Let's answer some of the questions and correct some errors, shall we?

I looked at the picture supplied by Debbie Galant of the little stick flag and a McCain sign. The appeared to be about 10 feet apart in different parts of the yard.
No connection between the two is implied. The hysterical rant by the anonymous bigot is pure sillyness.

Perhaps noone here is aware that McCain has bashed the Confederate Flag and wants nothing to do with it. Truth is lost on hysterical people who like to be anonymous while deciding whose rights should be denied and whose should remain.

Some suggest people won't vote for Obama cause he is a black man. These are as racist and bigotted as the morons who will vote for him cause he's black - but this seems to be overlooked in the rants.

Dannyboo calls for the banning of the St Andrew's Cross. Well Mr Cencorship, I suppose you would have a lot of Confederate Flag supporters angry at you, as well as Scots and Jamaicans as well... Can you say DISCRIMINATION?

The Confederacy was not 'lilly white' nor pure 'white protestant'. Please get over yourselves.

The last Confederate General to surrender actually signed a cease fire with the Union. That was Native American Stand Watie and his Cherokee Braves.

Bishop and General Leonidas Polk was Episcopalian and founded the University of the South in Tennessee.

Secretery of State Judah P Benjamin was a Jew. So was the sculpter Captain Ezekiel Moses who did the Confederate Memorial in Arlington National Cemetery.

Hispanics, Irish, Scottish, Blacks, Women, some Children, Prussian, Italians, Indians, & Asians all fought as Confederates.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Conventions/story?id=5668622&page=1

Police thugs arrests the press.

GaFlagger I'm not sure I understand your point or what relevance your supposed facts have to do with what the confederate flag stands for.

Banning the confederate flag, or St. Andrews' Cross, has nothing to do with the Jamaican or Scottish flag. Sure, they both use a saltire but they represent three distinctly different nations/concepts. That's like saying if you ban the consumption of human meat, you should go ahead and ban the consumption of ALL meat. It's makes absolutely no sense.

I honestly can't attribute common folk supporting the confederate flag to anything other than pure stupidity.

Poor European immigrants came over under indentured servitude. They originally worked alongside African slaves. Both groups realized they had a lot in common; they were both getting their clocks cleaned and were poor. Upon realization of this, slave revolts began to increase in regularity and being outnumbered, this is something the slave masters feared.

So the Naturalization Act of 1790 gets passed which instantly grants all whites of European descent, instant citizenship and removes them from out under the yoke of indentured servitude. Now they can vote, can make a wage, and own land. Unfortunately, though, they're still dirt poor.

So you have this bunch of rich white elites in the South who then decide to go to war to protect their right to own blacks as slaves.

They convince the multitude of poor whites in the South to go fight for their property and right to own slaves.

If the South wins, slaves continue to be the only form of free labor.

So basically, the poor confederate soldiers were fighting to allow the rich white elites the right to use slave labor in favor of paying the poor whites a wage.

They were fighting themselves out of paying jobs.

That's just stupid.

So go ahead, honor that heritage. Show the world your shoe size is larger than your IQ.

As TommySalami said, "We should be thankful that the ignorant sometimes choose to identify themselves in this fashion."

"Perhaps noone here is aware that McCain has bashed the Confederate Flag and wants nothing to do with it. Truth is lost on hysterical people who like to be anonymous while deciding whose rights should be denied and whose should remain."

GA,

We are very aware that John McCain has flip-flopped on his opinion of the confederate flag. During the primaries in 2000, he said he personally saw the flag as a symbol of heritage. In 2002
on the Early Show he said, "the Confederate flag should be taken down," but that, in an "act of political cowardice," he "didn't say so" because "everybody said, 'Oh, look out, you can't win in South Carolina if you say that.' "

"Someone should inform them they lost."

Tell that to all the people who still have Hillary signs on their lawns...

Tuesday, August 26, 2008

Racism in Nutley

During a drive through our neighborhood one afternoon, my husband and I were appalled to see a confederate flag on the lawn of a home on Highfield Lane in Nutley. To make matters worse, the flag in question was next to a John McCain lawn sign.
While I understand that we live in a country that celebrates the freedom of speech, we also live in a country that tries very hard, on a regular basis, to rise above racial indifference and embrace tolerance and diversity, especially on the eve of a historical presidential election.
Yes, the upcoming presidential election is not only a presidential election, it has put race back into the forefront of the American social consciousness. Anyone who says that ?they don?t see race or color? is in fact a racist of the worst degree because they are erasing a part of the human identity. A confederate flag juxtaposed with a McCain lawn sign creates the message some will keep a white man in the white house, for that reason only. But would this confederate flag be as appalling if there were no McCain sign next to it?
The answer is, yes. The confederate flag is a grim reminder of our nations troubled past. The confederate flag is not a symbol of southern pride, when it was created, it was a symbol of southern pride for those people who wanted to keep slavery active in the south. In the years since the Civil War, it is a symbol most frequently associated with white supremacists, neo- nazi?a and the ku klux klan, groups so vile that I will not even capitalize their names.
The confederate flag is a history lesson in itself. As a symbol, it is a reminder of chattel slavery in the United States. It is a symbol of African people stolen from their native land, piled, like livestock, onto ships and brought to the auction blocks of the southern states to be sold off as farm animals. We are talking about the rape of African women, the emasculation, castration and lynching of African men, and the selling of babies and families to benefit the plantation systems of the genteel south.
Yes, today in the United States we have the right to protest peacefully and speak freely but do we have the right to blatantly offend and disrespect people? I am bothered by the fact that there has not been more of an outcry against this symbol from residents of Nutley.
Consider that World War two occurred only 80 years after the end of the Civil war. Would the people of the town support a resident?s choice to display a flag of Nazi Germany? Would the public mind having a swastika billowing on the lawn of a home in Nutley? Because everyday that this confederate flag remains on this lawn the residents of Nutley are aligning themselves with the atrocities of the chattel slavery system, rape, murder and decades of racial injustice that followed the Civil War. We are aligning ourselves with the mob violence of white supremacists. We are aligning ourselves with intolerance. Are these the values of this community?
According to Baristanet.com, a local community website, there have been numerous complaints regarding the flag. Some good people have even taken the time to contact the Nutley Police Department. Unfortunately, the complaint of one caller was questioned by a Nutley police officer who asked, ?what if the resident was born in Mississippi and might be proud of his southern heritage?? To this I say the pride of one?s heritage should not come in the form of a racially insensitive and intolerant gesture. Find another way, moron! The equally insensitive comment from the police officer certainly explains why the Nutley P.D. has been the center of numerous questions concerning corruption and unprofessional conduct, lately.
Furthermore, this confederate flag decorates the lawn of a home in the ritzier Nutley Park. I wonder if the police would have made a bigger push for the resident to remove the flag if it was on the lawn of a home in a more diverse, working class area of town. Would the flag still be displayed if it were in a less affluent area of town?

This matter has brought the value system of the town of Nutley and their officials into question. As a resident, I want answers. As a resident, I want my neighbors to know that I will not tolerate this and I am not going anywhere. I am outraged by this spectacle. This flag is an abomination. It is insensitive, intolerant and RACIST. If the police department is going to wash their hands of this matter, then it is up to the residents of the ENTIRE town to speak out about this injustice. Everyday that this flag is out there it harasses the other members of this town who are trying to teach their children and appreciate their neighbors. Please speak out.

Has anyone asked the people in the house why they have the flag? That seems to be the missing piece here. We can blog on and on but they're the only ones who know why it is there. If it is an expression of Southern pride--and we have a right to free expression-they have just as much right to have the flag as I do to the Irish Claddagh on my house. People who don't like Catholics could tell me to get the Claddagh off my house...and depending on what's offensive to certain perople, the requests could go on and on..The Confederate flies freely in the South; we don't see it here generally, but let's keep it in perspective.

TwoPeas & DannyBoo

My question is, exactly how does a soldiers flag stand for slavery? It holds no meaning but an identification symbol on a field of battle. Created by soldiers for soldiers to use against other soldiers on a battlefield - no politics, no religion, just killing.

Do US Army Cavalry Guidons signify genocide of Native Americans?

When did the Confederate Battleflag assume the burden of slavery? Slavery was protected by the US Constitution for 89 years prior to 1865. Slavery was continuing in Delaware, WV, Ky, Md, Mo, and even NJ during the war...

Certainly logic dictates that if a symbol for troop identification on one side now stands for slavery , then the National standard for the other side also stands for the same thing - and worse.

Let us pretend that after SC left, nobody else did. The war was averted cause of a new Constitutional Amendment. Congress passed it, Northern states ratified it, and Lincoln strongly supported it. It was destined to become the original 13th Amendment. Slavery in Perpetuity. The only unrepealable amendment to the Constitution.

Imagine that for a minute.

I visited Richmond last summer and went to this museum (link below). This war is still very much alive in the South and they are extremely proud of their southern heritage.

http://www.moc.org/site/PageServer

Twopeasinapod sounds like a completely humorless twit and a modern version of the village scold. Her spouse is much welcome to her.

She also posts somewhat in the vein of the organizer of a lynch mob, has the mock moral surety and self-righteousness down. That she has apparently never been to a NASCAR race, a Clemson or 'Bama game, even a Kid Rock or Lynyrd Skynyrd concert indicates to me just how much out of things she really is. (There also remains the possibility she's kidding, but in Baristaville who can ever tell?)

Fit company for dannybooyah, I suppose, but otherwise not to be taken seriously.

And the correction regarding the street where the Confderate flag was first spotted is really rather upsetting and irresponsible.

GaFlagger, the confederate flag doesn't stand for soldiers. It stands for the army they fought for. And the army was put in motion for a specific cause, as armies don't usually fight just for fightings' sake.

That cause was the protection of states' rights, the only state right in question being that of the right to own slaves.

To paraphrase the article I linked to which you obviously didn't take the time to read:

To criticize the flag and the Confederacy in this way is simply a matter of historical accuracy, not, as the Sons of Confederate Veterans would have it, a "heritage violation." In fact, to suggest that critiquing the confederacy amounts to a slur against Southern heritage is itself a slur against the Southland, in that it has the effect of linking the South and the Confederacy as if they were synonymous, when in fact they are not. After all, it is absurd to suggest that hundreds of years of the American South and its history can be represented by a symbol, representing an army, representing a government that lasted a mere four years of that history.

Neither the flag in question, nor the government for which its soldiers fought are representative of the South. To suggest otherwise is to write black people out of Southern history, since, to be sure, it is not their flag, even though blacks have been in the American South for at least as long, if not longer, than the vast majority of European sub-groups. It is also to write out of that history the many white Southerners who opposed secession, so mightily in many cases that the Georgia secession vote had to be rigged, and troops had to be sent to East Tennessee so as to force white folks there to go along with breaking from the Union. West Virginia, indeed, broke away from Virginia over the secession issue, led by men and women who saw the cause of a Southern slaveholding confederacy as illegitimate.

To choose the Confederate battle flag as one's proxy for Southern heritage is to make a choice that is inherently ideological and fraught with baggage. After all, one could choose to celebrate any number of other things about the South. As a proud Southerner, I do, by celebrating the civil rights movement, which grew from the soil of the South and was led by brave black Southerners; or by celebrating the educational tradition of Historically Black Colleges and Universities, which symbolize the striving for knowledge on the part of persons denied access to higher education by the white majority; or by honoring white abolitionists, who actually numbered more, per capita, in the South than in the North. Or for that matter by celebrating the gastronomic traditions of the region, though indeed such indulgences are probably best if limited, for the sake of oneself and one's arteries.

In other words, Southern heritage means a good deal more than the Confederacy, and indeed, a good deal that is better that that: a tradition of struggle and triumph on the road to liberty; a tradition of music and literature, and artwork, and any number of things one could venerate without having to honor a government that openly proclaimed its belief in racial supremacy and sought to hold millions of other human beings in bondage. It says something, and not something flattering, that so many people would prefer to celebrate the machinations of those who desired black servitude, than the struggles of those blacks and their white allies, who struggled for freedom.

Daniel, this horse has been beaten to death -- many times over.
The essay you included in your latest post is an interesting take on the whole question, but is itself shot through with inconsistencies. On the one hand, the writer would like us to accept that an appreciation of the significance of the Confederate banner is a de facto approval of a government that enshrined slavery. He/She then encourages us to look outside of slavery for things to celebrate about the south -- literature, music, food, and the like. Of course, ALL of those things would not exist in their current or past form without slavery. From the banjo to the cultivation of rice to the birth of the blues to the mountain of literature written by or about black people in the south -- there simply is no south without blacks and , by extension, without the shaping influence of slavery. It was a horrible, shameful episode of American history (and it is a part of AMERICAN, not just southern, history), but to acknowledge only those aspects of the institution that one deems benign is naive. Why are the blues, after all, the blues? Perhaps because slaves didn't feel all that great in their situation? Why did the cuisine develop as it did? Perhaps due to African influence and creativity? White planters would not have known how to cultivate rice, for example, had Africans not shown them how. So slavery is inextricably a part of the story, and to edit the story in order to assuage guilt or to demonstrate how "we're not like that anymore" is self-serving and certainly not authentic.
And are we to believe that the blacks who fought under the Union flag did so because they were so well treated and valued in the north?

There were also, croiagusanam, to further complicate the issue, quite a few blacks who "fought" for the Confederacy, anyway were carried on the military rolls as bona fide units.

Even in the movie version of "Ride With The Devil," Jeffrey Wright played a freed slave who for reasons of cultural affinity rode with Quantrill and other border raiders. This does seem to hsve been the occasional reality, though I doubt that dannyb would quite get it. (He has the steel-rimmed glasses kind of earnestness of SDS members I knew, and also their refusal to ever weigh nuance in the face of their bleak, fiercely dterministic view of history.)

Craig, judging by the sentiments of all in this thread and the reactions such a flag display elicits, is proof positive that the horse is not dead but just dozing.

So what you're saying is that the confederate flag should be celebrated because in effect, the cause the confederate flag represents allowed slaves to contribute to Southern culture and without the flag and thus the confederacy, these things that many Americans hold dear would not exist?

Do you really think those redneck whites who wave such a flag are really celebrating blues music and cornbread, Uncle Tom's Cabin and To Kill a Mockingbird? Do you really think they're waving the flag to celebrate how they were taught to plant rice by Africans? Do you really think those redneck whites who celebrate such a flag are in effect celebrating all of the wonderful things created and contributed by Southern Blacks?

Of course not. You would have to be delusional or incredibly naive to believe so. They are waving the white flag for one reason and one reason only; for the their belief in the lie of white supremacy.

I think you summed the entire argument up actually. As you said, "...slavery is inextricably part of the story..." so to pretend to celebrate the confederate flag without it's connections to slavery is intellectually dishonest. And since only ignorant, hateful racists are in the habit of celebrating slavery, just as the confederate flag is inextricably linked to slavery, those people will be inextricably linked to hateful racist white supremacists.

danny, discussions prove much more productive when one person refrains from telling another "what you're saying".
I believe that a great many -- perhaps even most -- of the people in the south who accord some degree of respect to the Confederate flag do so because they have a great deal of pride in their part of the country, and they wish to demonstrate that. Period. They do not yearn for a return to the days of slavery. They do not think that blacks should be grateful for having had the experience thrust upon them. They simply are proud to be southern and the flag to them is a manifestation of that. Just as a modern day Japanese who respects the same rising sun that troops carried into Nanking does not mean that he/she longs for the return of the Japanese Empire. You could make a case that a person not from the south who flies the flag here is being provocative -- I think it more likely that he or she is flaunting what he or she perceives to be rebelliousness and a certain outlaw affectation. You are dead wrong in stating that thousands, perhaps millions, of people who wave the flag (and it is not white, by the way) believe in white supremacy. You simply have no way of knowing that, and to make such an assumption makes you look very foolish indeed.
I'm going to move on from this, danny. You can believe whatever you wish to believe. I'll leave the moral certainty and righteousness to you -- when you're young you have those qualities, I guess. Life teaches us not to be so cocksure of ourselves.

"Uncle Tom's Cabin," dannyboy, is generally considered an abolitionist novel. (Hint: it was also written by a Northerner.) Unlike its pro-Confederacy counterparts in the form of the novels of the Reverend Thomas Dixon, however, it is at least still semi-widely read.

At the aptly named (wait for it!) Rice Museum in Georgetown, SC, there are in fact quite a few encomiums on the walls from noted white ante-bellum Southerners praising the instruction blacks gave them about the cultivation of rice. But as the museum also makes clear, it s also not the whole story about the development of rice as a cash crop, and the tale is somewhat involved.

Really, danny, if you wish to fume, then you're probably well-advised to fume more intelligently, with some genuine sense of context. Read some Faulkner, too, instead of Harper Lee's one novel; I'd recommend both "The Unvanquished" and "Intruder In The Dust."

And if you're really feeling anbitious, danny, try picking up sometime a bio of Nathan Bedford Forrest that goes into detail about his post-Civil War career. Yes, the man served as the titular head of the Klan for a time. But he also eventually disavowed the KKK and showed up regularly at black social events to shake hands and kiss babies, and at one time also seemed to offer a verbal endorsement of interracial marriage. Things are always more complicated than they first seem when you post through a film of impassioned, but only half-informed at best, froth.

And before I fade off to another thread, I'd also recommend Edward Ball's SLAVES IN THE FAMILY", which offers a tremendous look into the convuluted history of race in the south.

As this thread grinds into a tedious finish, and keeping in mind cathar's assertions that wisdom is not to be found in youtube, I present to you all this joyous and thoughtful message regarding race in America!

Gosh, was that dumb.

gloriously so!