What Is It With All This Self-Immolation?

yes. there must be a trend. Everybody, watch out for rising gas prices because of the high demand of people lighting themselves on fire. Can we talk about Russia VS Georgia? Great. Women and Men are being seperated and put in concentration camps. If the UK and US get involved we will have WWIII. Now I know both sides, and here is one of them: it's Georgia which wanted to occupy South Ossetia - similar to what Milosevic did with the KOsovo. By then did you sign a petition against NATO, US and EU to stop the aggression against Serbia??? I guess not!
Why do people open their eyes and become realistic? Georgia - or better their president - started aggression against South Ossetia. He knew that is area is protected by Russian army (Georgia asked them to do it) and he knew that most of the people their have Russian passports. Also he knew that when he starts the aggression Russia will strike back.
The only thing he didn't know is that EU and US will not be so stupid to support him and will not start a 3rd world war because of him.

Clearly Russia is trying to look strong, but will it work?

The USA won't want to become involved in a regional conflict when they need Russia's support on Afganistan, Iraq and Iran.
Also - It was Georgia's not so surprise attack that started this; then Saakashvili's "surprise" at the Russian reaction. Also slightly ironic he started it then tried to rush through a "ceasefire?"
And it is exceptionally important here to note that Putin IS in some ways getting even - as in 2003 Saakashvili led the "Rose" Revolution, then the Georgians aided the 2004 Ukraine's "Orange" revolution both under his watch. [and also the Kyrgyz opposition during the 2005 Pink Revolution]. I remember watching some of the news conferences at the time and seeing Putin fuming.
My favortie phrase in this conflict so far is the Russian's insistence they are in Georgian territory for "Peace Enforcement."

Some thoughts from free journalists about possible casualties in Tskhinvali. This is in Russian but I guess some of you can read:
http://www.ej.ru/?a=note&id=8317
Of course every life regardless nationality is precious and Georgia has to morn for Osethians civilians as well as Georgians who died in this conflict.
However, with all due respect to those who perished in the stupid and unequal war, the figures reported by Russians seem too farfetched. First of all, the figure that was announced in the first minute still remains unchanged! Seems like it was rather predetermined or Russians have become very effective in counting casualties (experience they probably gained when they killed their own people in Moscow Theatre and Chechnya). How they know whether the killed ones are Osethians or Georgian? Did they have time to check identities? Are their names known? We do see in "Russia Today" horrifying images and stories of funerals but this does not mean 1600 people were killed. The survivors are telling that Georgians were using forbidden guns! How would someone running into shelter in horror know whether the gun the Georgian soldiers were using was forbidden or not? These poor people in shock are repeating what Russian soldiers and media are telling them. They tell stories that Georgians were flooding basements where people were hiding. At the same time they say there was no water in Tshkinvali. It is interesting how Georgians were managing to flood basements? Maybe they called fire brigades from Tbilisi, asked them to bring water in tanks and flood basements, or maybe they took water in buckets from the wells?
I do not want to be understood as if I am dismissing the fact that many people unnecessarily died. But Russia is using a couple of graphic images and overlaying on it stories that they have invented. From day one they were talking "genocide" and tribunal, even before they could have counted anything. Common!...
I agree that Saakashvili made a serious mistake to let him be provoked, and I am sure Georgian people will ask him questions later when emotions subside. But if anyone needs to face tribunal it is Putin who exterminated Chechens, leveled Grozny to ground, killed more than 100 people with poisonous gas, handled Beslan siege in a way that led to the death of hundreds of Children, after not letting foreign help to their sunk submarine which could have saved their lives, and so forth and so forth). It seems that Russian presidents have some strange inaugural ceremonies - Putin had to establish himself by war in Chechnya and now Medvedev! But actually I seriously doubt that anyone asks Medvedev anything at all. I am sure sometime soon Medvedev and Putin will clash, poor Medvedev!
Now we hear Lavrov already predetermining South Osethia and Abkhazia's status and telling that they cannot live together with Georgians? Well if Chechens can still live within Russia why not? Also if it is about self-determination of status, lets say by referendum, then all those refugees who are legally residents of Abkhazia and Osethia have to take part in deciding where they want to be under Russia, Georgia or completely independent. You cannot kick out the majority of the legitimate population and then conduct referendum among the remaining monitories (who now include Kazakz and all other ?dervishes? from Russia) and say that this is what these breakaway republics want. This is may be what Abkhaz's and Osetian's want but if we are talking about them as Rebuplics they are not the only residents there.
One more evidence of how Russia respects its words: even though ceasefire agreement was signed which implies that they have to withdraw their armed forces to pre August 6 positions they are still occupying Gori and Poti, still moving around on their tanks on Georgian roads and are not planning to take their army from Osethia

This poor kid who tried to burn himself to death must be in even more ungodly pain now. I feel extremely sorry for him.

Praying for him, and hoping he has a very good pain specialist at St. Barnabas.

It is getting very hard out there. This economy is in the dumps and there is no plan B.

Lasermike,

Next time I need some cheering up, you mind if I give you a ring?

Tried to sabatoge the thread with my Georgia/Russia debate but it didnt work! Why do we have such strong opinions on gas lamps and sewage, but when it comes to world politics we are silent?

This is a story about failed suicided by self immolation. I'm sorry if I can't find a silver lining.

*Sabotage, not sabatoge. sorry Cathar

.. because world politics is for nimrods.

JT, the forums might be a better place for the Georgia/Russia war.

JT, I don't think folks on this site have ever steered away from a debate about world politics.

I'm overwhelmed at work, procrastinating, bummed out, and fuzzyheaded, and I can't wrap my mind around the Georgia/Russia conflict at the moment. Mental burnout, I guess. However, I can empathize with the 21-year-old kid in the story--more than I'd like to.

Georgia/Russia conflict, 59min. ago

MB-
Ok I got it. World Politics that affect, uh, the world is for nimrods. But a guy who lit himself on fire cause of bad credit is worth your thoughts, and advice, and prayers. Georgia is facing a genocide which will directly affect 230,000 people. Many of them may even be burned to death. Now, if you meant Nimrod by the biblical sense; then I'd agree.

The costs of treatment for such burns will be enormous. So the guy who tried to off himself will land in much greater debt than he probably was before the attempt. (Or, more likely, his grieving family will if he has one, and if not we taxpayers will have to foot the bill.) Wonderful strategic thinking, pal. One loses pity very quickly for those who willy-nilly decide to off themselves, suicide is hardly a "victimless" matter when you consider the sometimes lifelong effect on families and friends.

It is not at all akin to those Buddhist monks who did something similar, but successful, during the Nam war and had already cut themselves off from society via their commitment to an eremitic life. However futile their "protest" proved.

Et tu, mikey? (If you can tear yourself away from giving us all a deep lesson geopolitics here, that is.) What is your personal "Plan A," come to think of it?

I think folks are conflating the 2 stories in the article Bnet posted. They were 2 separate people (one who had debt worries and a young guy who's now at St. B).

Cathar, I agree with you. Depression is a selfish disease, and when one is so despondent it's difficult to see the forest for the trees--including the other people who'd be affected by the suicide.

I've suffered from bouts with serious depression since I was in my late teens. When you're in the midst of a major depressive episode, it feels like it's always been that bad and it will always be that bad.

Life experience has allowed me the emotional discipline to know that the feeling of hopelessness is a lie told by my neurons. But unfortunately, it can be an awfully persuasive one.

Try to have some sympathy for the kid who's now suffering from his injuries--he wouldn't have taken such drastic action if he'd believed there were any alternative.

Kate, while I empathize with both you and anyone who suffers from depression, I am quite tired of the romanticization of the condition as making someone somehow "special." Read Sir Robert Burton's "On the Anatomy of Melancholy," or St. John of the Cross or John Donne. These "old dudes" had a greater acceptance of shifting humors than we do today; it was understood by the general population that one would face ups and downs. But there was rarely a surrender to abject hopelessness. (I think of the conclusion of "Monty Python's Life Of Brian" during dark moments and I always wind up laughing my way out of them.)And there was comparatively very little suicide in the 16th-19th centuries. Today, alas, we have the Hemlock Society and similar groups, and even people who seem to enjoy helping others kill themselves, like Dr. Kevorkian.

In the old days, suicides weren't even buried in hallowed ground, and there was some immediate gravity accompanying such situations. Today, instead, the old friends in "The Big Chill" get together for a weekend's party, and never manage to discuss exactly why their former friend killed himself. I'm not sure that indicates "progress" of any kind.

(And I of course now await the contributions of that noted philospher of thanatology, laserboy, on this very issue. He who always seems to revel in grim outlooks surely must have something equally deep to say on this one...)

Hey Cathar...

I hear what you're saying, and agree that it's a poor idea to romanticize suicide (underscored by some evidence suggesting that suicide can become a mini-epidemic within communities). I also don't think that depression makes anyone 'special.' But even though it isn't diagnosed by a lab value or some other concrete criterion, it is an illness--and like many other illnesses it appears to be caused by a combination of nature and nurture.

I do think that sometimes folks examine the actions of mentally ill people through the lens of rational thought, and that must make it pretty impossible to understand something like self-immolation. But to someone who's profoundly depressed, it might feel like not only a rational choice, but the *only* choice.

I'm not familiar with the epidemiology of mental illness or suicide in the 16th-19th centuries. But I think our essential living conditions, diet, and society have changed so radically in such a very short time (evolutionarily speaking) that it would not surprise me if there were a corresponding increase in mental disorders in modern times. (That is idle conjecture on my part--not a validated theory.)

Crypt keeper, wrong again.

Clinical depression is cause by a chemical imbalance in the brain. Consider yourself, you have had a traumatic life, you hate the world, and yet you keep it together. Why? Because you brain functions enough to regulate mood. Character didn't keep you together, you don't have any. You're a sniveling coward and a bully.

... Because your brain...

Oh, man....There goes my BRIC Fund down the toilet!

Mikey, it is as simple as this: you are a hopeless, witless, friendless dip.

Y'all have a nice companionship-lacking night anyway, laserboy.

Pathetic and predictable.

Depression is a disease, we need to treat it as such. Cathar, your reference is outdated. It will soon be 2009, the Big Chill is not current. Kevorkian is another topic altogether, which has nothing to do with ending one's life as a result of chemical and emotional imbalances but is an attempt to control one's own imminent demise rather than give it up to technology or medicine that can prolong misery despite the prognosis of death.
Please don't start quoting St. Augustine. Or the history of the Catholic church. If I had a terminal illness, and I were in great pain or distress it would give me comfort to know I could have some control over how long I would have to be a burden to others and a diminished version of myself. Before you go on about your beloved Church and sin...my father had been in a deep decline for many many many years. He was a devout Catholic. His final episode put him in the ICU where he was put on a respirator with a feeding tube which would have kept him alive for a long time. When he was awake and lucid he asked to have both removed knowing it would be a certain death within a short time. Is that suicide, or is it coming to terms with the inevitable and wanting to make a quick and graceful end?

Jerseygurl, that you consistently post out of denseness makes me think you'd be a perfect mate for mikey, should you ever wish to spawn (and please do it upstream and upwind).

But your petty anti-Catholicism is really getting boring. I get that you don't like the Church of Rome, but "your" party this election year needs its members desperately if it wishes to elect Obama President. So just shut up until mid-November on this one, before you do Obama's cause any more damage.

And I am not the moral arbiter of the circumstances your father's passing. No one who posts here is. You really should know better than to claim otherwise. That you don't and suggest that someone should try, however, does you great discredit in a familial sort of way. You also might even have skipped giving us that personal note.

The fact remains, however, that suicide is often romanticized in this society, and for all the wrong reasons. None of us truly resemble the poet Chatterton in the hokey depths of his own emotion at being caught out in his flummery, and even Sylvia Plath was probably more vengeful harpy than put-upon bardess.

> that suicide is often romanticized in this society,

Please show some examples. I think you're full of crap.

Seems to me some are very uncomfortable with suicide because it totally contradicts the old "god doesn't give us anything we can't handle" notion. Apparently if you kill yourself then he does. Oopsie!

While I myself have a flair for the dramatic, setting yourself on fire and all. Perhaps couple that with a nice tall glass of bleach, but its very simple and relatively cheap really...Tylenol.

Oh mikey, you always think I'm full of crap. And the feeling is always mutual, too.

Okay, let's list a few more romanticizations of suicide, since you didn't apparently notice that I'd already cited Chatterton and Sylvia Plath: Ted Hughes's next spouse, Drieu de la Rochelle, Romeo and Juliet, Hunter S. Thompson...am I going too fast for you, laserthanatologist?...Anne Sexton...William Inge, Jean Seberg, Yukio Mishima....

Let's not forget Phil Ochs, either, young mikey. He definitely ain't marching anymore.

Don't forget "Ode to Billie Joe"

"Don't Fear the Reaper", Blue Oyster Cult

Larry, Moe and Curley.

"Tell Laura I love her," by Ray Peterson. And "Endless Sleep," by (I think without checking) Jody Reynolds, now there is perhaps the greatest song ever romanticizing suicide.

Yer Blues by John Lennon

(The silence from laserthanatologist is deafening since I replied to his challenge...mikey, art thou still out there grumbling impotently?)

"Suicide Is Painless"
"Stuck In A Moment"
"Richard Cory"
"Jeremy"
"Fade To Black"
etc., etc.,

I'm a little worried about the lack of response from mikhail. I just looked out my window and saw a huge fireball in the area of the "dead-end" gas lamps!

Hundreds of songs come to mind (and I'm for the most part a really cheerful person). This one happens to be one of my all-time favorites.

And do you really think that these references are part of the common consciousness of America? Other than Romeo and Juliet most Americans wouldn't know these names. No, you are full of crap.

America doesn't romanticize suicide. America romanticizes war, violence, and false heroics. You should know this. It is your practice.

Mr. laser,

I just heard this cute little ditty sung by a group of little kids from the Y:

Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
We love War, Violence and False Heroics
And so should YOU!!

They then laughed that little laugh kids are known for....

I was scared to death!

Hey, we even have songs that romanticize cannibalism: "Timothy" by The Buoys.

This song is definitely on my top 10 list for best cannibal-related tunes.

Right on, mike. Why, I just reading that great American saga that celebrates war --THE ILIAD. Those Marines were tough sons of bitches, I'll say!

If you want some romanticized war and violence (but some "real" heroics) curl up with a copy of the TAIN, that great Irish saga. "The Hound of Cullen" dispatches roughly 250,000 folks within the first three pages. And he's just getting started!
I'm headed off to the library to find a copy of a national saga or myth that DOESN"T celebrate war, violence, and "false" heroics.
I may be awhile.

Never read The Tain, croiagusanam, but I do still have my CD copy of Horslips' sortofversion! (Curiosity: can you in fact read Irish or Scots "Gallic" or whatever it's properly called? God but that has to be a difficult one to learn.)

And a big shoutout to Mrs. Martta for "Timothy!" I'd totally forgotten that one.

And mikey, I think most everybody knows about Hunter S. Thompson, even Sylvia Plath. The literary here, of whom there are quite a few, have probably read Anne Sexton, Ted Hughes and Mishima. The smart, which actually probably includes most posters (however distasteful their liberalism), know of William Inge and Jean Seberg. The French-speaking know of Drieu de la Rochelle....if you'll let me think a moment, laserboy, I'll try and think of a group which might actually include yourself, too, beyond the obvious grouping of "nitwits".....

Jimmy...if things get too tough for you I'll be happy to spring for the gasoline.

No pun intended but lighten up kid...its the Summertime and the livin is easy.

My reading knowledge of Irish is decent, cathar. Though I'm hardly Dougals Hyde. Or even Flann O'Brien 9 or Myles or Brian or whatever you want to call him). Never bothered learning to read Erse since the Scots only learned to write very recently.
I'm joking, of course.
It was taught, and still is, in schools throughout the Republic, but the methods were dreadful and most ditched it as soon as they could. Modern methods are much more effective, and consequently there has been a resurgence. I grew up in the black North, though, so there was and still is a political component at play.
Still, if I were dropped in the middle of say, Gweedore, I'd be able to find a drink, some food, and a place to stay. What more does one need?

ooh, am I too late ?

"Stairway to Heaven" ??

and even if it's not about suicide, during my teenage angst years I certainly thought it was and moped around playing it endlessly on my cassette radio.

Jerseygurl,

My condolences on the lost of your father. When we have had family members who had had a stroke or a heart attack, we checked with our Catholic priest and were told that there was not the need use heroic measures like a feeding tube or respirator if there was no hope of recovery. It is not suicide (or homicide) to request withdrawal of medical assistance if conditions warrant.

In Kansas? HA! Not even south jersey you elitist snob!

>And mikey, I think most everybody knows about Hunter S. Thompson, even Sylvia Plath. The literary here, of whom there are quite a few, have probably read Anne Sexton, Ted Hughes and Mishima. The smart, which actually probably includes most posters (however distasteful their liberalism), know of William Inge and Jean Seberg. The French-speaking know of Drieu de la Rochelle....if you'll let me think a moment, laserboy, I'll try and think of a group which might actually include yourself, too, beyond the obvious grouping of "nitwits".....

Kansas? Nice suggestion, lasermikey. Add yet another song to the ever-growing list.

Oh I see! Cathar is an elitist snob because he suggests that many people in America are familiar with some literary figures. Mikey is NOT a snob for suggesting that people in Kansas and "even south Jersey" would not have a clue who those writers are.
Its all so simple!

Ummmmm, NO.

Just as long as you didn't have to learn Irish in the hedge schools or whatever they were called, croiagusanam. Wasn't Flann O'Brien born Myles na Gopaleen or something like that?

Flann was born Brian O'Nolan, and used the names Myles na Goppaleen for his column in the IRISH TIMES. He was an astounding intellect and a great scholar of Irish, despite having been born and raised in Dublin.
No hedge schools for me, though. Just nuns and Jesuits.