Oops! Montclairion Apologizes for "N" Word in Cartoon

(eyes rolling).

That cartoon is not offensive.

Oh please. People need to stop being so offended. You can call me whitey or cracker or whatever; it has little effect on me. I just don't give a shit.

Besides, the cartoonist in question basically just lifted the entire concept for the cartoon from this canvasser's report in Pennsylvania.

Oh brother.

Call me old-fashioned but I just don't like this word. I don't care who uses it, it's ugly.

For better or worse, it's a word with a lot of power. There are those who attempt to strip it of its power by using it casually or artistically. Here I think the power of the word is harnessed to make a thoughtful and worthwhile point about the way people are voting in this election. I have encountered people who I would consider racist who are voting for Obama in a strangely promising and simultaneously troubling phenomenon.

Words are not evil. The meaning behind their use can be evil.

The cartoon depicts racists in their own words. The cartoon and cartoonist are not exhibiting racism.

You'd think a college and it's administrators would understand this.

And technically the "N" word is not used.

My first thought is if you dare use the word, make it funny as HELL.

Here, it's not funny so we concentrate on the word.

I think post-Chris Rock, we can use the word only if it brilliantly makes the point.

Here, it's dumb and offensive.

And there is nothing worse.

But isn't this the student paper that was "freed" from the evil administrators?

Is this what we can expect?

Really, are they so STUPID that they didn't know this would be an issue?

Or was that the plan.......?

its a comment on an actual, factual, experience in the news.

It's fair game.

Perhaps we need an "N Word" czar to which all intended uses could be submitted for "funny as HELL" exemptions.

(Portion of cartoon shown with offensive word covered in red.)

Even the offensive word is only seen in portion in that comic. Perhaps the full word is not the N word but "nigged," a masonry term Perhaps it's Joe the Mason they are voting for.

This isn't offensive. But the telemarkting calls I get from AMERICRAP FINANCIAL are.
These fools down in NJ call me all day long and I am sick of it!
I want you to call them at one of the numbers below. Since they use an auto-dial list and they don't know that you have just called them. Say Hello and they will think they have connected to another person.
This is the only way I know how to deal with these pesky asses. And we save another person from beieg bothered!
CALL and CALL and CALL
856-488-0985
856-662-0157
862-662-0275
862-662-0530

As an employee of MSU, it is truly offensive and shocking when looking at the original cartoon. I also find it especially irresponsible, since it is published in Montclair's University's newspaper...a university that prides itself on tolerance and diversity. Shame on them...someone dropped the ball.

I agree with Hans...please Americans please stop being offended all the time with the use of offensive words. I hate the sound and the use of the 'N'word. But I choose to ignore it, I don't go parading around demanding apologies or demanding someone lose their job.

We have got to take personal responsibility and decide to ignore instead of protesting.

I'm surprised to see aprilpenny working at MSU. One would think that her sister moneypenny could have hooked her up at James Bond's office at MI5.

It is a comic strip and the point the guy was trying to make was a satirical one. Does Montclair State similarly avail itself of a bowdlerized version of "Huckleberry Finn" in its literature courses? (Provided at least one of its courses uses Twain's novel in the first place, that is.)

This is sheer overreaction. Reminds me of the fuss people in Washington DC made a few years ago over someone's use of the word "niggardly," when none of the bellyachers apparently had any idea what the word actually means or of its roots in Scandinavian languages.

croiagusanam...is that the best you can do...don't quit your day job...if you have one.

ROC,

You cannot possibly believe that everything said is "fair game" for a college cartoon?

Here, it is not funny-- which might have been the only reason it should have been published.

And yes, REALLY funny allows for offense.

Not very funny, is just plain offensive.

Prof, my general respect for your opinions, even at their most addled, is fast eroding. (And have you ever read an uncensored edition of "Huckleberry Finn?" It didn't kill you to read it if you did, right?)

How touchy, aprilpenny.

Perhaps The Montclarian should appoint YOU as their "humour editor".

But it is too late for the employment advice, alas. I left the regular work force some years ago.

I will now let you return to being offended and shocked.

When does the new Bond film arrive?

Perhaps if you opened a newspaper sometime, jerseygurl, you might actually know. Or is that something just the "other" 95% of Americans - you know, the lower orders - do?

Or you could (shudder!!!) watch the tube from time to time, many channels are saturated with ads for the new Bond movie. I mean, you have to ask here? And of us groundlings?

Friday, jg.

Or so I'm told by "M".

Perhaps The Montclarian should appoint YOU as their "humour editor".

OK, and point out that you are using the European spelling of "humour" which we all know is not as funny because it's British humour. Wink wink, nudge nudge.

Hans-

You dont mind being called a cracker? Really? No shit! Its not offensive!!! Calling a white person a cracker brings them back to a time where they owned land and people!

What bothers me is the "N" word. By saying "N Word" rather than Nigger, you have alleviated yourself of any wrong doing. When you say it to me, I still hear "nigger" in mind. So, either say Nigger or don't, but please dont use the "N word".

Quantum of Solace arrives in theaters November 14th. A Quantum of Censorship arrived in Montclair today.

You dont mind being called a cracker?

Nope, it doesn't bother me in the least. You can call me Whitey if you want, or even "Whigger" which is slang for "White Nigger", even though I totally don't fit that stereotype nor do I drive a RiceBoy car.

I also answer to 'Hey Asshole", "Hey Dickhead" and "Jesus Christ" -- but only when I'm feeling challenged.

The point is, names and name-calling should not matter. It's too bad that most people are too ignorant, prejudiced, biased and bigoted to see above such tactics and ignore them.

I agree with ROC. There's not many situations where the use of the N-word would be acceptable but I think this is one. It's a brief exchange but it reveals so much about our country right now. I recall seeing the actual posting where this came from and I think it was from a phone conversation and not in person. I found the irony just so amazing I passed the link around. I mean, what an amazing exchange. Honestly, it made me laugh out loud. What does it says about how bad things are when the racists are voting for Obama?

That's how I learned to spell it, hans.

And if I have to give The Montclarian editors spelling lessons, I'll expect a cheque.

If this word bothers you, stay away from Woodman. The football players scream this word at each other all day long.

Easy Cathar, no need to get apoplectic.

Danial Craig is really good as 007. I'm definately going to go see this new movie in the theatre, 'talkers' and 'seat kickers' be damned!

jg, how do you like the new and improved 6:17?

It is offense. It's no wonder we don't get along.

It is never apoplexy when I read one of your flailing attempts to engage fruitlessly both with the English language and the "lower classes," jerseygurl. But, and always, despair and dismay.

I like it, to a point.

The joke (?) is that the husband sees the world in "black" and "white" but is voting for Obama anyway.

Is the husband a racist (let's say angry or resentful or fearful toward "blacks")?

Or is he just "old fashioned"?

We don't know.

My deceased grandfather (who was born and raised and lived all his life in Newark) would refer to minorities as "them". He wasn't prejudiced in any outward sense - the guy was open-minded and considerate and dealt with people as individuals. But he still saw "blacks" as a group, apart from him. I suppose I could say he was suspicious of them, but it wasn't overblown. I always saw him as more "old fashioned" than prejudiced. Maybe he wasn't even old fashioned at all (just human).

So, to me, the joke is that one way or another the guy is actually seeing beyond race. I have to assume he's voting for Obama based on some reason aside from race, even if its only "Bush-fatigue".

Of course, this goes contrary to the "meme" that has been promoted. That most pro-Obama supporters only see race. That they really don't support Obama for any reason that's actually related to his stand on certain policies. It goes contrary to the "meme" that Obama mostly benefits from race - that he gets support from minorities and from these liberals, but that he's "protected" because if you criticize him you may be labeled a racist (either by others or by yourself, LOL). Another part of that "meme" is that if Obama looses it will be blamed on racism (saying that people can't see beyond race in this election and will continue to "justify" or "explain" things based on racism).

Here is a guy who clearly doesn't care what others think, judging from the language he uses, and he pretty much deflates all those "memes".

Another part of the "joke" is that the wife is asking the husband "what do we think?" Another tag that the guy is somewhat old-fashioned as well. That's a joke in itself (though also an unfortunate one).

The message (to me at least) is pretty positive. We can "see" race but we can also see beyond it. That it involved an offensive word was actually key to it, of course. (Still, it is unfortunate that we haven't moved beyond that word itself).

I also like that its based on what may have been a real incident.

MB - I agree. Daniel Craig is perfect.
He's also perfect in the role of 007.

Excellent cartoon. Very funny. Given that it was produced by a black guy, it is a rather poignant social commentary.

Laaerturnip (speaking of the lower depths of brain power), have you ever read "Huckleberry Finn?") Not "Huckleberry Hound," mind you, but the Twain novel?)

No wonder we, me and thee. don't get along, eh?

MB - I agree. Daniel Craig is perfect.
He's also perfect in the role of 007.

Excellent post Former NJ Guy. And in plain English yet. Wow. Who woulda thunk it on Barista?

"I like it, to a point."

"I also like that its based on what may have been a real incident."

NJ guy your "mush" makes Walleroo look like Winston Churchill.

Do you ever make unconditioned declarative sentences.

If we asked you if the sky was blue, you'd say:

"most people believe it so and I am mostly inclined to agree...sometimes."

That comic would have also worked if the tag line was "We're voting for the Muslim."

Then the implication may have been that some negative ads (or robo-calls, or e-mails or web comments) either weren't working or were even being counter-productive.

Of course, another implication (in that variation) would be that voters are indeed shallow. We're left wondering why (or how) they arrived at that decision (as it involves some level of ignorance).

Generally it would imply some sort of exaggerated "lesser of two evils" thinking.

For either tag line, it's only relevant because its an election. Because of that it's not just gratuitous (used just for shock value) or pejorative (an excuse to be offensive).

ROC -

I'm just trying to make explicit some things that I read which are implicit.

Or slightly implicit.

I think some of them are made implicit because they would be indefensible if a person actually stated them clearly.

I'm not naming names, but I don't mean you.

Aprilpenny, someone dropped the ball because they failed to make another attempt to shield grown students from the fact that there are rednecks, yokels and racists out there?

It's a pretty much direct quote of something that actually was said to someone by, ostensibly, just such a person. And it's being retold as social commentary so that others, like us, can boggle at it.

How can you confuse that for a lack of tolerance on the part of the cartoonist, the Montclarion or MSU??

Some hick really said that. But somehow the fact that this cartoonist is telling us about it is "shockingly offensive"?

Obviously, you're the sort of person who chooses one word a person has used and focuses on that out of the context, completely ignoring -perhaps intentionally- the meaning of the statement. Sad.

"Obviously, you're the sort of person who chooses one word a person has used and focuses on that out of the context, completely ignoring -perhaps intentionally- the meaning of the statement."

The underling logic behind political correctness.

cathar,

You shouldn't hold me in any regard. I will only disappoint.

But we'll have to disagree here. I don't find this an overreaction and it is nothing like the niggardly comment made my by the DC guy.

Here, the offense was the choice to use a word (despite the "r" or "a" being off panel) that many find to be THE MOST offensive.

In DC, the guy used an appropriate word that sounded similar. And those dumb folks wrongly took offense.

Big difference.

Likewise, Huck Finn has a literary history, this obviously does not compare.

My exception to funny referred to Mr. Rock and his Nigga/Black Folks routine.

So, if this were, say, written by Chris Rock and reprinted in the Montclairion, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But it wasn't, so we are.

Also the underlying logic of the quote you posted yesterday regarding Obama and Marxism, ROC.

"Here, the offense was the choice to use a word"

He didn't choose the word. This event actually happened.

this guy

Read about

this event

and made a cartoon.

Pitty, he's not black enough famous enough, funny enough or whatever to get the prof's "N" Word License.

Interestingly the cartoonist had to say about it.

No surprise here:

The strip ran in papers across the country. So far, Montclair's been the only place where there's been a dust-up.

"Here, the offense was the choice to use a word"

He didn't choose the word. This event actually happened.

this guy

Read about

this event

and made a cartoon.

Pitty, he's not black enough famous enough, funny enough or whatever to get the prof's "N" Word License.

Interestingly the cartoonist had this to say about it.

No surprise here:

The strip ran in papers across the country. So far, Montclair's been the only place where there's been a dust-up.

of course we are the market leaders in faux "outrage". It's our chief product and export.

Also the underlying logic of the quote you posted yesterday regarding Obama and Marxism, ROC.

Excellent, ROC!

Here's today's

Not as funny, but still good.

The article ROC posted goes on to say this:

"Over in Indiana, PA and Northern Cambria, PA, volunteers fielded complaints of a massive wave of ugly robocalls both paid for by John McCain's campaign and those paid for by third parties. The third party call was interactive, and purported to be from Barack Obama himself. The call starts out reasonably, and then "Obama" asks what the listener thinks is the most important issue. Whatever the response, "Obama" then launches into a profane and crazed tirade using "n***er" and other shock language.

From what we've seen, this IS the McCain ground campaign. Robocalls count as "touches" on voters, as do direct mail pieces such as this one. As David Plouffe said in today's fundraising letter to supporters, "These tactics are all that the McCain campaign and their allies have left.""

Whoa! Now, THAT's offensive!! And I find it hilarious without anyone drawing a cartoon about it!

Yes, very offensive. As was the couple profiled in the cartoon.

I don't think for a second those robo calls came from the McCain campaign.

p.s. I don't find it the least bit hilarious either.

And David Plouffe knows, too. But that tells you a lot about him I think.

I don't think for a second those robo calls came from the McCain campaign.

Poor, deluded ROC. Go ahead and keep telling yourself that. It's OK, Rush Limbaugh and all the other mouthbreathers are still on your side. Next Wednesday you can pack up and move to Mexico. Your team won't be missed.

"I like it, to a point."

"I also like that it's based on what may have been a real incident."

NJ guy your "mush" makes Walleroo look like Winston Churchill.

Do you ever make unconditioned declarative sentences.

If we asked you if the sky was blue, you'd say:
"most people believe it so and I am mostly inclined to agree...sometimes."

Posted by Right of Center™ | October 29, 2008 3:31 PM

*****

ROC -

First, I liked it only to a point because I can see that some may be offended by it. That doesn't mean I agree with them, just that I think it fails as that aspect may detract from what I saw as the "point" of the joke. I also see using that word was integral to the "joke." I thought I made that clear, but maybe not clear enough.

Second, I qualified the veracity of the event intentionally. It may be fabricated. I guess I should have said "based on a reported event".

By qualifying my statement I wanted to show that being "true" didn't really matter - it was still a meaningful strip either way.

But I can see how I might sound "mushy". In the future I'll be more direct. Thanks for the style tip.

BTW -

I was also thinking of the story of the woman who claimed (falsely) to have been assaulted and defaced by an Obama supporter.

The point of your post with a link to that story became meaningless (when she later confess it was a fabricated claim). Though I appreciate that you probably linked to that story just for the interest factor and not to "make a point".

The McCain campaign has been using robocalls to smear Obama - that is not supposition, it is fact. The actual scripts have been in print.

Honestly NJ Guy. I have no idea what you're getting on about and little if any interest to figure it out. I've tried a few times with your long posts about the nuances of "how we speak" but in the end there is just no "there" there for me.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I thought it might save you some time in the future.

Former NJ, I agree with SirGadfly, excellent post.

The strip ran in papers across the country. So far, Montclair's been the only place where there's been a dust-up.

Thank you for this bit of digging, ROC.

That's OK, ROC.

You say you don't understand me, I don't mind.

I'll make a deal - don't ask me me to explain something when you don't actually care for an answer.

("Do you ever make unconditioned declarative sentences.")

Plus, you can skip over anything I post (or not).

On my part, I will not be condescending (insultingly and dismissively) by saing something like ~ "I'm sorry that what I wrote was over your head. Maybe you are just a bit slow for this topic."

I'll leave that technique to others. Plus, I think you can understand a lot of things very well.

Cheers !!

Okay, so, ah, ROC,

Is it new to you that if you say something funny that might offend, you get a pass or at least not judged as hard?

Or that Black folks (or any "in group" member of any group) are allowed to use offending words (so "fame" isn't a criteria) without the same harsh outcome as others?

That this is based on a real event is of no consequence.

It was unfunny so, it reads without the benefit of a knowing chuckle, which makes it offensive.

(I may trademark this equation: "Offensive language + funny = funny; Offensive language + unfunny = offensive"....)

If you can't understand that, I got nothing else for you.

x
EdgeDriven_Widget("?method=getswf&pid=111111111157&iid=8122531847430&width=480&height=348",8122531847430,480,348);

laser, that's about the most sensible thing that you have EVER posted!

http://videothevote.org/

Great!

Now i have to decide between "LaserTurnip" and "EdgeDrivenWidget".

I got your turnip.

Just getting the word out to video the vote. Republicans stole the presidential election two times already. We have to stop you again.

Just getting the word out to video the vote. Republicans stole the presidential election two times already. I am confident we can stop Republican election theft if we are vigilant.

Prof, freedom of speech and freedom from censorship generally extends to all. You have a selective grasp on this. I suspect your grasp also doesn't include Ice Cube, Ice-T and NWA.

You also never mentioned if YOU'd read "Huckleberry Finn." But while the novel has a "literary history," it is also often presented to readers in censored form. It'd be nice to hear from someone at Montclair State who could tell us in what form the book is tackled there, and with how much apologizing if it's read in its uncensored form.

Laserboy, you never mentioned if YOU'd read Twain's novel, either. The extent of your political delusions (I'm fairly sure your social ones are even worse), however, is made clear by your assertion that Republicans "stole" the Presidential election twice.

Yes, you have to "stop us", turnipbrain. That you imagine yourself part of the Obama team is even amazing. What, mikey, you think you're going to get a sub-cabinet level secretaryship come the transition team? Or simply some semblance of human dignity and a date on Saturday night with a fellow "progressive?"

And the woman who apparently self-carved a "B" into her cheek (shades of Anne Tyler's "A Slipping-Down Life") is merely a pathetic nutcase who was also apparently previously tossed from the Ron Paul campaign. Where they certainly already know from nutcases.

She is in no way a sort of Republican counterpart to Tawana Brawley - what, no one remembers how Democratic politicians first rushed to Ms. Brawley's defense in NY and nationally? - and let's not try to make her one.

Cathar, it's good to see you can reference a work from a female writer, and one that is still alive.

this topic sure brings the live ones out

the onion

I just find some words today too inappropriate for certain places. Working with kids I am not happy with the S**t, f**k etc. Funny that the kids still find words they think they can say, safe enough, but they hope will offend. the latest is "hobo".
These are the top 5 rules for the American hobo (1889), on wikipedia.

Decide your own life, don't let another person run or rule you.

When in town, always respect the local law and officials, and try to be a gentleman at all times.

Don't take advantage of someone who is in a vulnerable situation, locals or other hobos.

Always try to find work, even if temporary, and always seek out jobs nobody wants. By doing so you not only help a business along, but ensure employment should you return to that town again.

When no employment is available, make your own work by using your added talents at crafts.

Useful to know to educate these kids on the language they are using.

One "who is still alive," jerseygurl. Is there no end to the miseries you inflict on the English language?

And personally, I always throw Anne Tyler into the "dead but just doesn't realize it" category. Which is also kind of where you've been assigned.

Actually, Cathar, the use of the word "that" is also correct. However, while I was checking my dusty copy of "Elements of Style", I did come across a rule you might want to revisit. "Omit needless words. Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts."

Charles Meets Barack

Charles in Charge

Jerseygurl, "your" grammar book is wildly mistaken. And the last thing I need to hear from you is about "vigorous" writing, given the flaccid nature of all your prose. If paragraphs should contain no unnecessary sentences (well, there goes Doris Lessing, Margaret Drabble, even P.D. James to cite three chicks for your sake), then you should simply cease posting. Maybe even communicating altogether given the feebleness of both your style and attempts at content.

Laserturnip, you're starting a little early today, no? Usually you have to work up to a good fuming and it takes you until about noon. I'll take this as just an indication you never have anyone to snuggle against on chill morns. Really, mikey, it's never too late to get a pet. You could start with a hamster!

Thank you, comrade Turnip.

Ooh, Cathar..."flaccid," "vigorous," "hamsters"...? I had no idea you were paying attention to my affections from yesterday!? I'm not sure how turnips can be used, but I'm willing to learn! Your immense vocabulary and ego are really cranking my fantasies into high gear.

IT_Guy, you might start the obvious way, by trying to get blood from a turnip. Ask laserboy if you can use him for practice.

And then go do even more lurid, "progressive" things to yourself.

(Really, there's usually a good reason why IT people are sort of a bad joke in many offices. Are you so hell-bent on conclusively establishing why with post after post?)

There's usually a good reason why thesaurus-loving blowhards are sort of a bad joke in many online communities. Are you so hell-bent on conclusively establishing why with post after post?

Oh, Cathar. Fap fap fap! If it's OK with you, I'm going to hang above my bed a large poster of John McCain and put "Cathar / Aiken 2008" on the banner. My own personal "dream team". Siiiigh. Fap fap fap!

Interesting.

In Florida, McCain is ahead in exit polls from early voting, even though droves more democrats voted early.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200881029048

And In Nevada Obama is only up by 2 in exit polls even though lots more democrats are voting.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/33433079.html

Uh, oh!

I smell voter fraud again.

of course you do jersey. I suspect you will unless the tide turns and then those states will be models of clean elections.

I expect nothing less of you.

Do you think the exit polling firms are paid by McCain or Cheney?

If McCain wins by less than 2% or something like that you can expect armies of lawyers to contest the results with potentially an entire recount and/or re-vote, in states that have less than 2-3% difference.

The American public will not be fooled again like in 2000 and possibly 2004.

unfortunately it cuts both ways.

I imagine if it's close we'll have a protracted result again.

Honestly. I think we should go to paper ballots and purple ink-stained thumbs.

"We Won't Be Fooled Again"

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss..

Hansi, the bad joke is always from the likes of you, the guy with a loose emotional sphincter. That you have so few words to choose from, however, forcing you to resort to profanity, just indicates how limited you probably are in so many ways.

That you have a "dream team" actually speaks well of you, IT_Guy. Just make sure you change the sheets every now and then after you've played "balls" with them. Lest your mommy find out.

And jerseygurl, I just sense another dumb, purely knee-jerk reaction from you again.

And Cathar, your insufferably one dimensional and witless insults are truly boring. It's a shame we can't harness all the hot air you produce to use as a source of renewable energy.

In Florida, McCain is ahead in exit polls from early voting, even though droves more democrats voted early.

From the same article:

"Only a tiny fraction of the Florida respondents reported voting early, leaving McCain's lead subject to a wide margin of error. A Quinnipiac University poll, released Wednesday, showed early voters favoring Obama 58-34, another small sample with a potentially wide margin of error."

And In Nevada Obama is only up by 2 in exit polls even though lots more democrats are voting.

Again, from the same article:

"Experts caution that it is important to take such data with a grain of salt because it reflects only who has voted, not who intends to vote.

'There's no way to know what the turnout will be on Election Day," said Larry Sabato, director of the Institute for Politics at the University of Virginia. "Every vote counts the same. One that's cast at one minute to 7 on Nov. 4 carries exactly the same weight as one that was cast by absentee ballot a month ago.'"

Don't let your wishful thinking carry you away. Fox News can bray all they want about McCain being "two points" behind, but the last breakdown on a statewide basis shows Obama comfortably ahead in enough states to get elected.

Braying? Oh, Mike91. You'll know when I start braying. (Not something I expect to do this time around).

You cite something in rebuttal which is even more troubling than my point.

"A Quinnipiac University poll, released Wednesday, showed early voters favoring Obama 58-34"

Yet at the polls (even with MORE dems voting) McCain is winning by 2)

So they're telling telephone pollers one thing and apparently voting a different way.

Makes one wonder a bit about the polls.

Braying? Oh, Mike91. You'll know when I start braying. (Not something I expect to do this time around).

Actually, I said you were thinking wishfully. Its Fox News braying about Obama's "two point lead" (at least from the 2 minutes I caught on Hannity).

So they're telling telephone pollers one thing and apparently voting a different way.

Makes one wonder a bit about the polls.

Which was my point. These sample sizes are so small, the statistics have a wide margin of error. Hence, very unreliable and not at all contradictory that one poll says McCain is up, and one poll says Obama is.

"These sample sizes are so small, the statistics have a wide margin of error."

In the Nevada polls the exit polls were by far the largest sample size: over 7000! Which gives them smaller margins of error. So I guess (thankfully from my point of view) it's the most accurate mentioned.

Thanks for bringing that up. Makes the thinking a little bit less "hopeful" and a touch more "scientific".

I also hasten to mention that neither report came from Fox. But since they're both favorable to McCain I realize it's probably all the same to you.

ROC, can I please have your home address? If a year or two from now we have President Palin presiding over WWIII as a result of our having invaded Iran I would love to pay you a visit. By then I'm sure the economy will be in great shape and we'll have really cheap gas from all that oil it only took us a year to get from offshore drilling.

What you dislike most, jerseygurl, is that, as I disagree with you, I also deign to point out your own amazing snobbishness and condescension towards that "95%" of Americans whom Obama claims will receive a tax cut.

You're no more a democrat with a lower case "d" than I am a member of the Socialist Workers Party, and why walleroo seems to indulge such a cross between Madame Bovary and Becky Sharp is beyond me.

This coming from a guy who doesn't uphold the constitution and advocates torture, wars of aggression, and genocide described as "a war of civilizations".

You support neither democracy, the republic, or the rule of law. You are an authoritarian and a fascist.

In the Nevada polls the exit polls were by far the largest sample size: over 7000! Which gives them smaller margins of error. So I guess (thankfully from my point of view) it's the most accurate mentioned.

And what was the margin of error? The article doesn't say, so I wouldn't take too much comfort from it. Still seems like a small sample size to me.

I also hasten to mention that neither report came from Fox. But since they're both favorable to McCain I realize it's probably all the same to you.

And in your haste, you neglected to read that I caught it while watching two minutes of Hannity last night.

The margin of error is statistically related to the sample size. The larger the sample size the lower the margin of error.

In Nevada the recent polls had a sample size of around 600

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/nv/nevada_mccain_vs_obama-252.html

The average of which is 7% in Obama's favor.

The exit polling data with a sample over 10 times greater put obama ahead by 2%.

ergo, it is 10 times more likely that obama is ahead by 2 than ahead by 7.

And this ignores the fact that exit polling is usually more accurate than phone polling.

Because a much larger percentage of democrats voted than republicans in the early voting it is more than likely McCain is actually ahead in Nevada.

And this ignores the fact that exit polling is usually more accurate than phone polling.

Quite the opposite in recent history. Exit polls were waaay off in Kerry v Bush as well as in many states during this endless campaign's primaries.

Data:
...Interviewing for the 2004 exit polls was the most inaccurate of any in the past five presidential elections as procedural problems compounded by the refusal of large numbers of Republican voters to be surveyed led to inflated estimates of support for John F. Kerry....

...The Bush people saw major defeat: Preliminary numbers showed the president a staggering 20 points behind in Pennsylvania and losing in every other closely contested state....

the only accuracy edge is that the pollsters know for (almost absolutely) sure that they are polling actual voters, not just a random cohort who say they will.

This is getting so wearisome, this arguing over exit polls. (Apparently McCain is ahead among American citizens in Israel, three-quarters of whom are orthodox Jews.) I can't wait until it's all over.

shades of things to come

Scary, indeed, on this Halloween day.

ROC, the McCain campaign's been doing the same thing for some time now, even though there is available space on their plane.

Who got bumped?

ROC, they are probably making room for Obama's mobile abortion mill and Osama bin Laden -- who I hear is now flying around the U.S. campaigning with Obama.

What? I read it on Drudge therefore it must be true.

Who got bumped?

"Bumped" implies making room for someone else, which the Obama campaign has done. McCain's campaign previously refused Joe Klein and Maureen Dowd seats in spite of room on the plane.

Oh brother. Who cares who is on the plane? Both candidates have freely given interviews. The bigger issue is the overall lack of substantive interviews with Palin. The NY Post is a rag. I wouldn't let those reporters come over for a BBQ. There are plenty of members of the legitimate press covering both campaigns without making a big deal over conservative rags.

Gee, and I think the real problem is the lack of substantive, probing interviews with Obama. As Charles Krauthammer noted the other night, it's as if the "press' has dropped a curtain over the candidate, to themselves protect him from any serious challenges to his own statements.

I'd love Post reporters at my barbecue, jerseygurl. They'd sure be a lot more democratically minded with a lower case "d" than you ever are, and far less starchy than your average Times twit. (You're quite welcome to even Frank Rich and Thomas Friedman.) Probably a lot more fun to be around than the laserturnip, too.

Who gives a crap who gets bumped. The campaign is over. Now it's about GOTV.

I would think that Steve Dunleavy would be fun at a BBQ.

Make sure you stock up on the Foster's and Pim's before lighting the fire at the BBQ, cathar.
An awful lot of those hard-hitting reporters at the POST learned their "trade" in Sydney and Fulham.

It's true, bombastic Aussie drunks can be fun at parties. However, Dunleavy is no longer at the Post and with his retirement I think, sadly, we've seen the last of a dying breed.

The campaign is NOT over until one candidate can jeer to the other:
YOU GOT SERVED!!!

"I'd love Post reporters at my barbecue, jerseygurl"

Cather, I've had my fair share of drinks with writers from both sides of the aisle, and if you want to talk about fun, no one could hold a torch to Steve Dunleavy. I remember bumping into him a few years ago during lunchtime at Langans (across from the Post) and he was already pretty inebriated. When I left work that evening and was walking past the bar, he was still in there. To make a long story short, a few days later I read in the Daily News that Dunleavy had eventually passed out on one of those Rockefeller Center benches later that night and when he woke up the next morning, his wallet was gone.

appletony,

I didn't know about klien.

Dowd I don't care about. I don't think candidates should have to tote around opinion columnists.

But Reporters? Prominent ones? I don't think either candidate should dump them because they disagree with them.

And I don't believe for a second that the bumped reporters from Obama's plane just coincidentally all happened to be from papers which endorsed McCain.

It makes sense to me. Reporters from obviously-biased newspapers are more likely to misreport anything said on the plane. These days, even the simplest and most straightforward comment can be misrepresented and trumped up by slime like Rush Limbaugh and Free Republic, painting the candidate in a bad light.

If McCain's campaign had not already done the same thing then perhaps there'd be a story here, but Obama's campaign is simply following suit.

Last I heard, McCain's campaign plane was shuttling Osama bin Laden around to Palin rallies with the hopes of riling up the fundamentalist base. I read about this on Drudge and heard it on Rush, so it must be true.

Hans - I've been watching Fox and checking up on Drudge and the Free Press. Did you know that McCain bumped some reporters? Also, it turns out that Obama is not only a Muslim, he pals around with known terrorists and his passport may be a fake. Those sneaky Al Qaeda bastards! Imagine, almost 50 years ago they found a Kenyan atheist, had him marry a woman from Kansas and they have been grooming the offspring to take over America. I am truly frightened now. And it turns out he has bumped the only fair and balanced journalists on his plane. Now only those disreputable NY Times reporters will get the inside scoop on what the real plan. I'll bet their even thinking about election fraud! All those machines flipping votes for Obama over to the Republican side were just a test, they plan on reversing that I'll bet.

Could the right wing possibly sound any more shrill and ridiculous?they

oops... trying to work and post.

their = they're
"what the real plan IS for the takeover"

Did you hear that Bill Ayers dedicated one of his books to Sirhan Sirhan, the man who killed Bobby Kennedy?

This one happens to be true, however.

JG--you forgot to mention that Obama is the antichrist. ;)

I knew Stevie quite well many years ago.
My favourite Steve story involves Elaine's, a winter evening, several cocktails, a fetching young woman, a snowbank, and a vehicle rounding the corner.
Connect the dots.

If Ayers were running for public office, I would care. He is not.

I used to be on the board of an organization that advocates for women in the film industry. We put together panels, events, award shows etc. I would not be surprised if I were to learn that a few of the members and fellow board members may have somewhat radical beliefs or perhaps may have even been involved in criminal behavior as a result of those beliefs. I really don't know, it's possible, but it makes no difference at all to the organization and it's goals. It is entirely possible to "associate" with someone and to work with them to achieve something without being sympathetic to their own personal cause.

"It is entirely possible to 'associate' with someone and to work with them to achieve something without being sympathetic to their own personal cause."

Would you associate with a known pedophile? If you were a bank manager and you learned that a job applicant used to associate with known felons, would you hire him or her?

There's a fine line here.

Of course, you could be as clueless and dumb as Palin and believe that the freedom of speech only applies to her.

Do we really want someone dumber than Bush (I did not think that was possible) running this country after McCain overdoses on Viagra?

Mrs. M , if I am on a board or a planning committee with 20 people who are prominent members trying to achieve something we believe is valuable and one person on that is someone who associated with felons years ago, the answer is yes. I would not walk off a board or committee that was doing something I believed is a worthy cause because on member has a criminal PAST.

I am in charge of who I hire, I cannot control who gets elected to serve on boards. I am currently the president of a board for a trade organization, same thing. The other members are elected, we serve a common cause. I don't like all of them, I don't agree with all of their politics. It's possible one or some of them might have committed a crime. That doesn't make me a criminal, that doesn't mean I share their beliefs and I don't even always agree with programs with which we move forward. We vote, the majority rules. Like a democracy.

Sorry for typos. I need to preview when I'm working and can't pay close attention to posts. But you get my point. Ayers should only be an issue if Obama were to say I am of the same mind as this man.
He has said quite the opposite.

You stay classy, McCain/Palin supporters.

Pimm's, croiagusanam? They drink Pimm's "cups?" Neighbor of an old girlfriend, she was from Yorkshire, used to make them for us poolside. Lots of fruit and ginger ale the way she did it, I guess to hide the alcohol content. Tasty, but I kind of thought "Posties" drank Tooth's Lager and Fourxxxx. (And then they chewed on the cans the beers came in, I always assumed.)

No one, however, not even lifer Army noncoms, tops the Ukrainians I was once with at a wedding in Buffalo (in the winter no less). Some of them were new to the idea of punch bowls, so they just passed it around and slurped directly from it until the rum punch was gone. Then they hit the plum brandy and the Wyborowa vodka from Poland the Ukrainian-American club carried. (I abstained from that part because Wyborowa is the only brand of hard spirits that has truly made me ill of and by itself. Once attended a function at the Polish consulate where I got sick for a week on the stuff, I can still taste the buffalo grass in my mind.) They all wound up with their pants down singing songs about "the famine of '39" in a snowstorm. Then they went back inside, ate sausage sandwiches on black bread and watched the Sabres on TV. Not a one had passed out when I left at 3AM.

Any journalistic-type functions I've attended over the last 20 years have been much tamer in nature. NYT personnel in particular are real wusses, purse-faced neo-Puritans, certainly not the sort of hard-drinking reporters Ben Hecht would have recognized.

I imagine the NYT crowd drinks white whine spritzers.

"I imagine the NYT crowd drinks white whine spritzers."

Nah, pomegranate juice..

I don't know, hansi, your posts never make you sound like too much of a class guy either.

I knew "Billy" Ayers (he was always "Billy" back then), Ted Gold and Diana Oughton (who went to pieces in that brownstone explosion), a few others back in the day. They were all self-serving creeps, little pukes who talked a lot about "moral violence" and took themselves way too seriously. That the likes of Ayers have been accepted into academia since is no credit to Amwerica. But I also think Billy's spouse, Bernadine Dohrn, is even worse than her wimp of a spouse. She publicly congratulated the Manson family on the offing of "a few pigs," after all.

No, none of this exactly ever disqualifies Obama from the Presidency. (The Democrats are so forgiving, after all.) But all his adult life, he evinces a pattern of bad associations, and a contemptuous attitude towards those who'd question the wisdom, even in hindsight, of such associations. That bothers me a great deal. Obama truly conveys an arrogance, he sees himself almost as beyond criticism, as a kind of Mahdi-like figure whom we should adore at some point.

But then, friends I'd served with in Nam were in fact due to attend the dance at Fort Dix at which some of Billy's pals planned to plant that bomb that instead went up in the Village. (To which I say, "Thank you, Jesus.")Billy was never terribly big on the right of people with whom he disagreed to exist, that I remember well. I doubt he's changed. If he or his wife or even Khalidi or the Reverend Wright or Father Pfleger so much as ever sets foot in the White House by invitation, America should promptly set itself to weeping copiously. Not least for whom they elected.

Whatever else one makes of Obama, after all (I do not at all share MellonBrush's stated opinion on this site that he is "remarkable"), he is the most left-wing Presidential candidate we've seen since Henry Wallace. I wonder if all his vocal supporters here actually think that's a Martha-like "good thing."

cathar, if you want to hang with Petr and Mihail, the East Village can still be the place. Fight your way through the NYU types and the rest of the yuppie scum, you'll find the Ukes on 2nd Avenue and still at the Kiev late at night, picking fights.
Whenever i see them, I always think they're tough sorts, but its not hard to imagine them with a baton greeting the trains in Poland.
They love the Irish though, so how can they be all bad?

...he is the most left-wing Presidential candidate we've seen since Henry Wallace. I wonder if all his vocal supporters here actually think that's a Martha-like "good thing."

... y'know, I would care more about that but for the fact that the Republicans have ridden their reputation for frugality and temperance of action into the ground through aggrandizement of the executive, erosion of individual liberty, spendthrift policies that boggle calculation and overt government religiosity. Not exactly "conservative" behavior a la George Will or WF Buckley or Burke! Obama is more conservative in discourse, temperment and views of personal liberty than the current Republican leadership could ever be. Palin (and the attendant pro-ignorance, anti-elitist crowing) was the final straw for most William Safire-type libertarian conservatives.