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In a few hours, we'll all be watching, but here's a preview of tonight's debate as both VP candidates answer the same question from Katie Couric:
Give us your predictions of how it will go down, what will be the buzz words, gaffes and any awkward moments we can expect to see.
There was an interesting article in the Daily News today about how she used 'non-answers,' like 'i may not know about high finance, but I know how much pampers cost!' to win her debates with her more experienced opponents for governor.
Look for her to score points with the viewing public, not necessarily against Biden.
i hate to say this but i'm hoping they didn't prep her so much as to take the fun out of it (fun in a makes-you-squirm kind of way).i'm telling you, america likes "joe six pack", "you betcha!" phrases. i know people who are fantasizing about kegging with her. please.
Biden is a fool.
While smooth, his answer is odd.
He speaks of national consensus, which smacks of federalism, yet he supports Roe, a decision that comes from judicial reasoning and NOT consensus.
Also, to ask a legal question to a non-lawyer and a conlaw "scholar" seems unfair.
So while Palin's answer surely leaves something to be desired, I wish Couric (who needs to fire her lighting guy), would have also asked a question about governing style-- which we know would favor Palin and put Biden in the role as the noob.
Also, pointing to her deer in the headlights brain freeze, Palin spoke out about the Supreme Court's Exxon Decision in August, yet was unable to recall.
At the very least, the Gov of a State should be able to speak to Sup. Ct. decisions that hit his or her State.
Here, nothing.
Tonight should be fun!
okay--somebody help me out here. Palin calls herself a "federalist" because she thinks the STATES should each get to decide about abortion. It's been a long time since Am. History 101 for me, but....don't federalists advocate for a strong central government that supercedes states rights??? Couric didn't call her on it, though, so maybe I'm wrong or the term has more than one meaning? Somebody?
In terms of presenting intelligent, well put together responses, I think this will easily go to Biden. However, this seems very much like the Bush-Gore debates where people were won over by W's "personality" rather than Gore's intelligence. People need to remember they are voting for someone who could potentially be running this country, not the person you'd rather share a six pack with.
This is one of the 4 or 5 occasions that come around every year that make me wish I had cable.
Maybe I'll hook the mac-mini up to the TV and see if some news network or another is planning on streaming the debate live.
a very recent Palin quote...you tell me what it means.
"I think it should be a states' issue not a federal government, mandated, mandating yes or no on such an important issue"
I think only Palin herself might know what she meant, and even that is in doubt. Really, her endless babbling of non-sequiters (a "verbal corn maze" as Kathleen Parker put it) makes George W. Bush seem like a cunning linguist by comparison.
Thanks, Raeven.
If I can't find the video anywhere (I've got a feeling there will be some priceless expressions), I'll definitely check out NPR for the audio.
GNM, the debate is on reg'lar network TV not just cable. I think you can see it online at PBS.org too.
Someone will use the term "nucular" to mean "nuclear." Hopefully, it will be in the context of a joke.
sub,
It's only confusing if you choose not to understand. (Or if you don't like the woman). But---
Here, (since you didn't supply the context of the quote), she's saying that this issue is one the State should decide (like gay marriage currently is), and should not be mandated )via The Supreme Court I imagine).
Not that complex.
In practice, an easy understanding is gay marriage, which is currently a States issue. Although, because of Clinton and the Defense of Marriage Act, States are not required to recognize these marriages.
Oh, boy, i'm so against Obama and his pro-tax socialist view of the role of the Fed Gov. But imagining Sarah being President makes me want to hold my nose when I pull the lever for McCain.
Anyway, I think tonight will be the last twinkle of Palin's rapidly fading star.
Hot off the AP wire:
McCain abandons efforts to win Michigan
WASHINGTON - In a major concession, Republican John McCain has abandoned efforts to win Michigan, a Democratic-leaning battleground state the GOP presidential candidate had hoped to capture. Republican officials with knowledge of the strategy said the GOP nominee is removing staff, curtailing advertising and canceling visits to the Midwestern state, which offers 17 electoral votes.
Well Pork...they still have akk the bible thumping anti-abortion, anti-evolution idjits in the middle of the country.
VP Debates: The Game
(take from Jossip)
My addition: to start, pick a designated driver if you're playing this at a local saloon...
? Every time Sarah Palin starts talking like she's in Fargo take a shot.
? Every time Joe Biden nervously gaffes, do a kegstand.
prof--soon as she's elected, she should hire you to be her translator...no kidding.
"Oh, boy, i'm so against Obama and his pro-tax socialist view of the role of the Fed Gov. But imagining Sarah being President makes me want to hold my nose when I pull the lever for McCain."
I'm kinda in same boat. What a dilemma.
Sarah has excellent bone structure.
I hear she once ran the 400 meter dash in 58 seconds.
She can chug a beer in 7 seconds.
Her ta-tas are borderline bodacious.
Anybody got anything else?
Hmmm. Where do Ice and Mrs. get their "pro-tax" and "socialist" notions? Unless you're making over 250k a year, you'll get a tax break. I will actually see an increase, but someone is going to have to pay for this Republican sponsored socializing of banking.
sub,
She doesn't need me. She is a popular Gov of an important state.
Regardless of her ability to discuss foreign affairs, and her fear of saying the wrong thing, I'd take her over the other 3.
Truman notwithstanding, I'm not a fan of a Senator as Presidents.
"Oh, I think they're just not used to someone coming in from the outside saying you know what? It's time that a normal Joe Six-Pack American is finally represented in the position of vice presidency, and I think that that's kind of taken some people off guard, and they're out of sorts, and they're ticked off about it,"
Sarah Palin
I think someone needs to explain to her the difference between a VP who represents the voice of Joe Six Pack and a VP who is as capable as Joe Six Pack.
Think she'll say "I'll get back to ya" at some point tonight?
Ya gotta admit, she is precious. Or at least tries to be.
It's been a long time since Am. History 101 for me, but....don't federalists advocate for a strong central government that supercedes states rights???
Sorry, jerseygurl, but no. Federalists argue for a federation of sovereign entities that make much of their own law, but that band together under a federal government to facilitate trade, arbitrate disputes among the states, provide for common defense and such. matters which
"and such. matters which" (???)
wow- I should be a VP candidate with that one!
I meant, "and such matters."
And whatever she has been coached to say, it won't change the fact that she is a bigger mistake than W.
"She doesn't need me. She is a popular Gov of an important state. "
Alaska is important because:
a) It has large oil reserves
b) It is close to Russia
c) It has a huge amount of unpopulated land
d) It receives the second highest amount of Federal spending per capita
The population of Alaska is larger than the population of:
a) Columbus, OH
b) Charlotte, NC
c) Fort Worth, TX
d) Memphis, TN
e) None of the above
Weel, she's certainly overshadowing McCain. Feels like Palin vs. Obama.
jersey and Perlstein:
What's next:
T.I. will vote for Obama
Ice-T will vote for Obama
You wouldn't dare write that, because you'd be called a racist.
But Palin and white folks??
Jokes away!
jerseygurl-
I don't see the pro-tax part of Iceman/Martta's comments, but while I think it's an exaggeration I do understand the idea that Obama leans more towards socialism in that he wants more government intervention than McCain does (ie healthcare policies). Still, I think the word "socialist" is just being used a lot of the time as a buzz word with a negative connotation because of the (really America? still?) anti-communist/socialist stance that many Americans hold. While I don't think that a totally socialist society would work out, I also don't think it's a bad thing at all for someone to have a socialist tint to their policies (here's a quote from Wikipedia: "Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth into a small section of society who control capital, and creates an unequal society." Well that doesn't sound bad at all!). I wish people would think about this more. After all, it's one of America's biggest flaws that we only have only two political parties with two distinct ideologies to choose from.
Look for Palin to turn any question she can't answer into a populist rant with some catchy phrases but zero substance. And if Ifill presses her for an actual answer look for the pundits to call Ifill biased for using "gotcha" journalism.
It's not that Palin does not know of Supreme Court decision other than Roe v. Wade or know what the Bush Doctrine is (though is hard to believe that the cluster f that is the Bush presidency has a "Doctrine") or understand the bail out, it's that she is so bad at BSing her way out of saying "I don't know".
She's not only a liar, but a bad liar.
"Gotch Journalism": Asking Palin a question before she has been fed the soundbite answer
Johnny Cash song comes to mind - "I Hear the train a comin', it's rollin round the bend..."
Once again, the prof missed the point by a mile.
Prof, I believe the Larry the Cable Guy and Al Bundy references were reflecting the perception that Palin appeals to the Hooters constituency, i.e., crass, boorish guys who might be more inclined to vote for her because of her "borderline bodacious ta-tas" than her intellect (if that's what you want to call it) or grasp of the issues.
But here, to make you happy:
- Lots of black people are going to vote for Obama because he is black.
- Lots of white people are going to vote for McCain because he is white, and Obama is black.
Uh Prof. More like smart white guys and smart non-white guys know better than to think Palin is an appropriate choice. It's not about her race it's about her appeal to a low common demoninator.
Palin's College History (1982 - 1987):
- enrolled at Hawaii Pacific College, left after her first semester
- transferred to North Idaho community college, spent two semesters as a general studies major
- transferred to the University of Idaho for two semesters (during which time she won the Miss Wasilla Pageant beauty contest, then finished third in the Miss Alaska pageant, at which she won a college scholarship and the "Miss Congeniality" award.)
- attended Matanuska-Susitna community college in Alaska for one term.
- returned to the University of Idaho for three semesters completing her Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism, graduating in 1987.
Maybe I'm just a liberal elite (aka a middle class kid who worked his *ss off to get good grades in high school and college and went very far into debt to pay for my education) but I look for a little more intellectual curiosity and capability from my leaders.
I thought "Row versus wade" were Teddy's choices at Chappaquidic...
then finished third in the Miss Alaska pageant, at which she won a college scholarship and the "Miss Congeniality" award
Well then I was wrong, she really does balance the ticket, because as McCain is fond of reminding us (twice during the debate, ever!), he never won "Miss Congeniality".
...but Palin is also a maverick...and Miss Congeniality...
The inner conflict must be staggering.
SSP, I agree that Ifill will be pilloried on the conservative talk shows as another "gotcha journalist" if she does anything resembling her job tonight... but God, I hope she does it anyway. She shouldn't go down in history as the one who let Palin get away with these vague, insanely uninformed canned answers in the only debate she'll do before the election.
Hey, roll call--who's going to the B-net debate party at Fitzgerald's tonight? I'll be there; look forward to meeting some of you (and making rude retching sounds as Palin wanders through her thickets of non-answers).
-KateBirdRex (formerly known as Kate here)
Mr. Roll,
If there were a point to be missed, forgive me.
However, my simple point: that some here happily create an unattractive (and I would call racist) imagine of Mrs. Palin (or anyone with a Southern accent), but would be the first to scream RACISM, if anyone dared make the same kinda reference to Mr. Obama.
Now if you can't understand that point, I got nuthin' for ya.
I'll take "Joe Wine Box" any day. I'm tired of hearing about the right wing sixpack guzzlers out there. All you neo wannabe hillbillies can move to Pennsyltucky and throw plenty of Rolling Rock down yer lager holes!
Any life up there on Mars prof?
I'm hoping that whatever endearing quality people may find about Palin's personality tonight is offset by her delivering cracker jack responses in that bumpkin accented shrill screech she calls a voice.
"Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth into a small section of society who control capital, and creates an unequal society." Well that doesn't sound bad at all!). I wish people would think about this more. After all, it's one of America's biggest flaws that we only have only two political parties with two distinct ideologies to choose from."
We DO have a Socialist Party, albeit a small one. If more people wanted to join up, they would. Who's stopping them? We also have a Libertarian party, Communist Party, among others. Just look at your voting ballot, there all listed there. Me, personally, I would not like living in a socialist society. I like living in a society that values creativity, individuality, innovation. I also like keeping most of the money I earn. I don't mind helping folks in need out (that's what charities are for) but I don't like being screwed over by the government and paying for wasteful, stupid programs and pork projects.
No, you got nuthin' for me, you never do. Yet I would be curious to see examples of "racism" directed toward Palin, or even sexism. If anything, she has been handled with kid gloves because of her sex.
Southern accent? Gee, despite the fact that you really cannot see Russia from anywhere in Alaska, I'd still bet that Palin's geography awareness is better than yours. Her accent is very much like that of the North-Central Plains, like Minnesota, more than anything. Maybe she picked it up in Idaho.
I don't think people denigrate her because of her accent, but rather for the way she uses it in that folksy manner to create her personal myth, that of the small-town faith-and-family hockey mom who's just trying to do the right thing if she is "so privileged to serve" as she is so fond of reminding us. The same myth that advances the cultural elitist view that "small-town" values are somehow superior in America, notwithstanding that the majority of Americans reside in fairly urban areas.
And after the Couric interview, there is more more substantial reason to dismiss Palin than her Fargo accent. There just is no there, there.
Pork Roll is basically asking Where's the Beef.
I guess I butchered that one.
Pork, let the prof go. He would be ideal on stage in St. Louis tonight, as he combines the artlessness of Biden with the emptiness of Palin.
As for me well, I refuse to be lectured to on the subject of "southern" white accents by anyone who doesn't self-identify as a southern white.
That's the prof approach!
The more I watch her (I've really been trying not to, just as I try never to listen to W--it makes my stomach turn), the more appalled and offended I am that not just McCain but apparently all the advisers he may employ thought that America would not see through this pandering pick. I will watch the debate with Pepto Bismol--and a bucket--at the ready.
Pork Roll, you asked for examples of "racist" criticism of Palin. Well, it's not racist, but let's start with 3 examples of truly outrageous commentary about her:
A) Matt Taibbi in the current Rolling Stone (he reminds me of dannyboor, only even coarser of tongue) gave a profane, condescending version of who he thinks supports Palin, and it boiled down to (literally) lame, overweight white retards.
B) Wendy Doniger in yesterday's WaPo said Palin is "not a woman" and went on from there to dismiss her culturally. This sort of thing also plays well in Baristaville, I know, but not so well perhaps in the part of America that doesn't resemble Montclair attitudinally in the slightest.
C) Last week in the Boston Globe, another self-proclaimed "feminist" whose name I forget authored a long screed whose point was that Palin, a la Wendy Doniger's version, "not a real woman." Particularly because of her opposition to abortion, by the bye.
All three statements are based on the unwillingness of supposedly intelligent people to even try conceiving of a woman who doesn't seem to have sprung wholly formed politically from Gloria Steinem's loins in terms of her worldview and does not chirpily parrot every sodden cliche that the likes of Sheryl Crow, Sandra Bernhard (just disinvited from a Boston event, a domestic violence group's fundraiser, because she imagined herself witty and cutting when she suggested Palin would be "gangraped" by "her black brothers" if she dared come to NYC, an amazingly vicious remark) and Barbra Streisand can come up with by way of making the case for women voting Democratic.
Obama may well win the election. But he will then sweep into the White House with the support (for a while, anyway) of some of the truly most scabrous, bitter abd bitterly out-of-touch leftists out there. Who imagine themselves morally superior to their fellow Americans because of their claimed social and cultural "progressivism." This also works well in Baristaville too, but otherwise is an astounding writing-off of America in general, represents snobbism and elitism in the extreme.
(Perhaps even worse, even obvious idiots like Comrade lasermikey seem to imagine themselves part of this grouping. And people who never seem to have read so much as one serious work of history, like my pal jerseygurl.)
cathar, while you more often than not have terrific things to say, you cannot be serious when you suggest that the examples of anti-Palin sentiment expressed by some is in any way "worse" than the nonsense many right-wingers have thrown at Obama -- Muslim extremist, white hater, Koran-toting America hater. If some of the Palin critics are over the top (and they are. Sandra's comments especially was disgusting) so too are the Obama haters comments. And if McCain wins then he will "sweep in" with an equally odious group of acolytes. Why is this even an issue? That there are morons who support one candidate or another? This is news?
As for "morally superior" well, I've listened for years to right-wingers say that those who feel as I do on some issues are unpatriotic and "out of touch". Moral superiority too, seems quite equally distributed.
Palin "not a woman"? Many on the left have also said that Obama is not "black". Our resident buffoon the prof has adopted this line as well. I guess this, though, is not as obnoxious?
Having watched the debate, I can only feel supremely satisfied that my sentiments regarding Governor Sarah Louise Palin have been proven true ... just a chromosome or two away from being a vegetable. Another stellar statesperson from the party that brought us Dan Quayle ...
Croiagusanam, firstly, there is no group more odiously prominent in my personal hierarchy of demons than "celebrity" Democrats. It simply becomes a matter of selecting one's favorite nutjobs. Matt Damon or Sheryl Crow? Joy Behar or Bruce Springsteen? Michael Moore or Joy Behar? David Crosby or Graham Nash? (Couldn't resist that one.) Et seq......
Against these, yes, I'd much prefer, say, Kelsey Grammer and Chuck Norris visiting a McCain White House.
It is valid, of course, to inquire into Palin's apparently quondam association with those Alaskan separatists (even though they're surely not totally serious in their stated aims, a key point too often overlooked). Equally valid to wonder how on earth someone who sells himself as attuned to global rhythms as Obama does could have associated with Billy Ayers and the Reverend Wright for so long. (All it'd take most of us to disassociate from either rotter would be a perusal of Ayers' resume and a sample of his rhetoric, or a sermon or two from Wright.)
But the criticism of Palin comes from a left not at all concerned with issues, but rather with appearances and social line-towing. She is not like them, ergo she is "not a woman." Ergo, a la Taibbi, her supporters are invariably people who could never sing for dannyboor. So there is some real difference there.
Whatever points Biden may or may not have scored in last evening's debate, too, the fact remains that he is nothing more than a professional politician. He has held no other real job since graduating law school (after successfully negotiating his way out of plagiarism charges). I've more than once compared him to other members of what Milovan Djilas called in a pretty well-regarded book "the new class," but apparently this seminal look at politicians and apparatchiks was never read in Baristaville.
Compared to Biden's single-minded, near-obsessive career path (which after several tries for the Presidency has only resulted in the nomination for the position John Nance Garner once described as not worth a bucketful of warm spit), Palin seems a very well-rounded human being. Seems to have real interests beyond the pursuit of political power. I'd call that a plus.
But, again, criticism of her from all and sundry, both on this site and in the national media, seems on the general, absurd level of your usual lasermikey post. Left-wing and liberal yahoos don't like her accent, her clothes, her record of small town governance, even her fecundity, for God's sake. This is especially noticeable on this site, where posters day in and day out display colossal ignorance about something so basic as "mere Christianity" (thank you, C.S. Lewis), let alone the fundamentalist or evangelical kind.
Yes, Obama has undergone something similar at times from right-wing yahoos. Some. But the national media seems too enamored of the glamor the guy seems to radiate to inquire seriously into something that the prof raises in his own inimitable way, the lack so far from Obama of anything approaching substance.
(Really, too, with "guys" like dannyboor and laserboy and jerseygurl lurking around the furthest edges of intelligent discourse, how can you possibly tag the prof as the resident buffoon? That one baffles me. Is it because he doesn't clench his teeth and snort as he posts?)
I'll address the last first, for as you know the first shall be last...
The prof is the resident buffoon for a great many reasons, but I feel it is unseemly to talk about him as if he's joined the choir celestial. I'll save my barbs for delivery directly to him, as he does for me. Its our way. And its a black thang... you wouldn't understand.
I have no issues with jersey. Frankly, I think you're a little hard on her. The other two well, its a bit like kicking puppies after all.
I think that Obama has received plenty of scrutiny and plenty of criticism. And rightly so. He's running for president, after all. But if you really believe that Hannity and Rush and many others have been "fair" to Obama, then we are really quite far apart. I don't think he's gotten a free ride at all. And I am less concerned with the celebrity hangers-on than I am with the unsavory politicos who lurk in the shadows behind McCain -- the Rove wannabes and yes, Rove himself. At the end of the day, I don't care which singer or soap star supports either one of these tickets, and I really don't understand why it bothers you or, for that matter, anyone. This is a uniquely American thing, this whole celebrity endorsement routine, and I've never gotten it and still don't. The Brits flirted with it for awhile with Tony Blair, but even that didn't really take off.
I see Palin as a nice enough sort, I suppose. But she has nowhere near the gravitas I want in a person so close to the power. And she is quite clearly less informed on key issues than at least a dozen posters here. It seems as though those who support McCain are reluctant to admit the possibility that he blew it on this pick, that that would somehow cast every decision he makes into doubt. It wouldn't.
However, if Palin ever leaves that outdoorsy Eskimo, I'll gladly take her call.
Cathar, you are despicably lying scum, unamerican, unpatriotic, cowardly, and a traitor. You have worked hard to destroy this country. You are the enemy within.
PS. I'm off to campaign in a in a republican town to remove another traitor republican from office.
It's firm proof that Cheney and Bush have destroyed the Republican party when dyed haired mammas and their unemployed husbands in the Great Plains go ecstatic over a candidate with nothing to offer except right to life nostrums, a slew of antiquated colloquialisms and a wink or two.
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It was brutal watching Sarah 'answer' some of Katie's questions.
She was a preposterous choice for GOP VP and I think tonight we'll se more of these 'squirm' moments.
I was maybe 20% for McCain a few months ago. It's dropped to zero now. The fact that he chose this bimbo to be his running mate blows me away.