Monday, Apr 27, 2009 6:51pm | COMMENTS (138)
Holy smokes, who’s running the Defense Department these days, Orson Welles?
(Photoshopped Air Force One done in five minutes at no taxpayer expense and without setting off any panic.)
YouTube video of real panic after the jump.
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And O’s doofus Press Secretary laughed it off.
Sorry to say, it’s looking more like Amateur Hour everyday….
(And yes, if Bush did something like this the MSM would be asking for his head. With Obama….. Well……)
But THIS was the best moment of the day– Obama Lost in his Teleprompter world…
Proving once again, that the greatest orator of his generation is only that when the teleprompter is working.
Otherwise, he’s a stumbling, mumbling, ummin’ and ahin’ fool.
Prof,
That is right, for sure. Can u imagine if Bush had to use a teleprompter…the mainstream liberal media would surely mock this buffoonery. But not for the anointed one…he is forgiven.
And forget the air force one mishap…pelosi would have already started impeachment hearings.
Can’t wait for 2/15 2013…Inauguration Day
I’ll bet you haven’t seen this.
But you would have if Bush had said it.
You are kidding with Bush teleprompter stuff right? You people live in bizarro world I swear. Do you really believe that Bush never read from a teleprompter? He did the best he could and he even had them spell out the names of world leaders phonetically, but when it was obvious he couldn’t answer questions coherently he had to be wired with an earpiece for pressers and debates so he could be coached what to say.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe Bush wrote a single speech of his, as opposed to Obama who writes much of his own stuff.
Get real.
The good guys won Pete, and the other people are still being really sore losers.
With Bush, the Gaffes weren’t really anything but comedy on top of an awful run as a president. Here the right seems to be trying to tear his flesh because of a handful of miscues.
Oh, and he’s making the republicans all poor.
SSP,
What? Obama doesn’t write any more of his than any other President.
And really, why should they? They have enough to do running the Country. Which is why they have SPEECHWRITERS!
But if you want to believe that Obama is sitting around writing his speeches, go ahead.
FYI, young Jon F is the man behind O’s words. Very talented… Very talented!
Obama is a great reader, when the prompter works.
Without it, he is average at best.
Watch his Press Conference this week, he will stumble through is answers in a way that makes Bush seem like Clinton.
Nonsense. Every once in a while I come back here for a visit and it’s still the same old nonsense. Pete’s right. Bizarro world.
Fools. Anyone who would have criticized Bush for using a teleprompter or for flyover mishap would have been labeled a “bad patriot”. Not to mention the basic buffoonery in defending Bush. That alone speaks for itself.
Sour grapes though. Your ability to accept the situation and move past a Dem in the office is admirable! Sore losers.
I think Ice, prof, and others have “Can you imagine if Bush…” saved on their clipboards so they can paste those words whenever anything happens. “Can you imagine if Bush screwed up reading his Teleprompter?” No, I can’t. But I can imagine — because it happened — Bush driving the country into the ground with mismanagement: Iraq, Afghanistan, Katrina, a recession, unregulated bankers taking the country for a ride, etc.
So given the option of him and O, I’ll take O every single day of the week, even when his administration screws up a photo op.
You’d think a party who took such a beating in November would shut their mouths for a few months about piddling little things like bad Teleprompter skills. I guess not.
Prof-
When was the last time you sat in a meeting with Obama and discussed who his best writer is?
One slip up in his words are you are “proving once again….”
Pick a leader you like, and go move to his/her country. I hated Bush, and if I had the means, I would have left America because of his policy. You are older than me, and you may be better off financially than I am. So…. Get off your high horse and hit the dusty road. (Or, get into politics and change the world)
Here is Obama speaking without a teleprompter.
Does this mean he is an idiot? Of course not. Given the endless hours he is out in public, it is inevitable that he will misspeak.
“He” in this instance can mean Bush or Obama.
But here is Obama again speaking without a teleprompter, betraying a lack of familiarity of basic, important subjects and a frightening contempt for out system of capitalism.
Again, this does not make him an idiot, just out of his depth and misguided.
Oh, so when Bush misspeaks, he’s a dumb, idiot.
But when Obama misspeaks it’s the long hours in public…
Now, I understand.
And you are too right with your assessment of Mr. Obama– so while I voted for him, every move it seems to give me pause…..
“so while I voted for him, every move it seems to give me pause”
For a professor, you don’t seem to be able to write a proper sentence. Imagine if Obama had written that!!!!!!!
Profwilliams, you are a troll.
Every possible political opportunity you get on this site, you use it to regurgitate Fox News propoganda. it’s getting extremely transparent and pathetic. Your clear goal is not to engage in meaningful debate, but to stir up the pent up (and justified in my opinion) resentment and anger of the vast number or liberals/progressives/independents. Here’s a bit of reality: we far outnumber those of your shrinking minority.
The country has overwhelmingly moved on.
Go troll somewhere else. Please?
So true, so true jarfrankel
If you go back to the prof. posts you will find 90% of has to do with Obama negative
remarks. From the first day the man was elected.
Even my liberal friends–yes I do have some—think this was a really dumb move on the Obama administration’s part. Not so much the photo op itself (although it is an embarrassing waste of taxpayer money) but the fact that the Mayor and other top people were not informed about this. I can see people living and wroking in Lower Manhattan freaking out about this.
i had to make a new login just to make this point ” VERY CLEAR ”
there is nothing news in ” fox news ”
this right wing propaganda distribution and creation center is fraught with mismanaged and inexperienced so called news team needs to turn off the lights…
the only way you can get actual news is to watch C-SPAN…
all other outlets are just spin doc shops and they should all be ashamed of them selves…
and at this point has anyone given time to check out the team the new administration is putting together… ” notice i didnt say Obama because ultimately he is ” DEF ” not the only person making the calls …. people need to get there lazy bloated heads around the fact that our country is lead by a ” TEAM ” not an individual…
VIVA CUBA!! restore our caribbean rivera… oh wait the F)(* germans and the saudis already bought up the all the good real estate while we were doing what exactly … oh thats right we actually dont know what we were doing …
Dr., jar and Nick,
Thanks for the morning laugh.
So, I can’t criticize Obama? He’s above that? I’m to turn an eye on his policies I disagree?
Understand, I voted for the guy. I believe in a lot of his policies (I guess you choose to pass over those posts….) BUT–
I am fair and Independent.
So just because I’m not a liberal doesn’t mean I’m some right-winger— funny how you libs only see the world that way.
And unlike many, there is a lot with Obama that were it Bush, or anyone else you, and the MSM don’t have a crush on, you’d be critical too.
But it’s far easier to spew the “troll…. Foxnews…..” crap.
So no. I ain’t going no where.
Nah, nah, na-na, nah……
The fly over scared 911 survivors that I work with. It was extremely stupid and insensitive.
Profwilliams-
On a website devoted to the goings-on of a suburban NJ town, you seem to only post purposefully inflammatory statements that are consistently anti-Obama. That’s my experience as a semi-regular reader of this site.
Your immediate fixation (in this particular thread) with his teleprompter use is only being trotted out on Fox News and right-wing radio. Most other reality-based media understands this is a non-issue. Yet you dig right in on an unrelated post about an unfortunate, miscommunicated, and misguided use of tax payer dollars. Your pavlovian response to anything vaguely political in nature has become really transparent to me, and I think, to many regular readers of this site.
Regardless of possible merit, you are the classic definition of an internet troll. You cause and then thrive specifically off of getting a rise out of the majority of the posters on this site.
I’m done with responding to you, and I’m really breaking the first rule of dealing with trolls (“never feed them”).
You are a troll. If you don’t know what it means, look it up on the internets.
So, I can’t criticize Obama? He’s above that? I’m to turn an eye on his policies I disagree?
If you had any worthwhile criticisms, maybe. As jarfrankel pointed out, all you do is regurgitate dumb FoxNews screaming points (Obama has trouble without a teleprompter! Obama’s taxing everyone!).
What makes this all the more ironic is that they’re not true. How many townhalls has he had? Agree or disagree with his appearance on Leno, but he gave in-depth answers to Leno’s questions.
And of course the tax stuff has been gone over. You still haven’t posted anything that contradicts the white house contention that 95% of Americans are getting a tax cut.
funny how you libs only see the world that way
Deny that you’re a ‘right-winger’ all you want, but “you libs” is telling.
Goof though it was, news reports say that Obama was angrier than anyone.
Anyway, I was looking less for screed and more for the local reaction from people who work downtown. This hit the mark.
“Dissent is patriotic.”*
*This offer expired at noon on January 20, 2009.
“Goof though it was, news reports say that Obama was angrier than anyone.”
This statement is scary in itself. Does President Obama not know what’s going on in his own office with his own staff?
Right-wing talk radio really helped get the Republican Party to where it is today — in the dumper and one flush away from the sewer; let’s hope Rush, et alia, stays around forever.
One poster here claims that Obama has a “frightening contempt for our system of capitalism.” Sorry, what has been practiced over the last twenty years is not capitalism. Capitalism depends on market freedom and not on market manipulation and self-serving control. The model followed over the last two decades should be held in contempt — criminal contempt.
But keep on blathering away, trolls: we may not agree with what you say, but we strongly defend your right to say it. Between guffaws, that is…
It’s not even funny enough for guffaws, Conan. It’s just dumb angry shit.
Oh, sure, like every President besides Obama knew everything that was going on in his office. C’mon, Martta, I know you are smarter than that. How many of out recent Presidents and Vice Presidents have spent hours claiming that “I had no idea what that evil person whom I hired and nurtured was doing. I’m shocked! Shocked I say!” There were days I think George didn’t even know where his office was, let alone what was going on in there. And, painfully, maybe he really knew he didn’t want to know…
Walter, making fun of the president’s Teleprompter skills is hardly dissent. Criticizing him for not wanting to prosecute people who broke the law — now THAT’S dissent.
Mrs. Martta, check the details here about how the information was not disseminated:
CBS News on flyover
Right on, Nick. He should be prosecuting the offenders to the full extent of the law. Cheney should be behind bars.
I dunno, Conan. I would think a major PR stunt or photo op–especially involving planes–would have to be passed by the Prez before it could be executed.
All we Trolls and assorted Republicans are asking is fair media coverage. Don’t you guys get it? The liberal media did all it could (obviously much was deserved) to make Bush look incompetent to America and especially the world. The media did all it could to report we were losing the Iraq war so that Bush would look bad. Don’t you think that all of the other nations noticed the contempt with which the media covered a sitting President. It was disgraceful.
Well, the media hardly covers the War anymore and the odrama media sycophants want to make excuses at every turn for Odrama instead of calling him out.
He has gone out and done a bunch of wussy apologizing to the world and now we are being looked at as soft. Is it a coincidence that now Iran, Russia, N Korea and the Taliban in Pakistan are sabre rattling? No, cause they are testing that weak man who is leading our country.
Note on CBS link: you need to scroll down to the middle of the page.
Iceman, you’re not even a troll. Just pathetic. Keep up the Rush commentary. It just continues to prove how out of touch with reality you, and the idiots you follow, really are.
And there was one day when Barack didn’t know where the door to his office was..
I know there are people on this site who don’t agree with me…But that doesn’t make your comments “dumb, angry s***. It makes your comments a different opinion. It seems that some of you are way too threatened by a different opinion.
Obama, like any politician–Republican, Democrat, Libertarian–is fair game for criticism, so get over yourselves..
Don’t you guys get it? The liberal media did all it could (obviously much was deserved) to make Bush look incompetent to America and especially the world.
No, Bush did a good enough job doing that himself. The liberal media did not start a war in a country that did not attack us over wmd’s that did not exist. Indeed, it can be argued that the liberal media gave Bush a pass in the runup to the war.
The media did all it could to report we were losing the Iraq war so that Bush would look bad.
So, we weren’t losing the war?
Is it a coincidence that now Iran, Russia, N Korea and the Taliban in Pakistan are sabre rattling?
Of course, in Bush’s eight years in office, none of those countries was an issue.
Nellie – trashing Obama for his less than perfect teleprompter skills is dumb angry shit. Especially in comparison to the mess we’re in thanks to the administration.
All expressed anger is dumb shit. And I say that with more than a modicum of guilt. But I would rather guffaw than feel pity. It constantly blows my mind that so many people who have been blatantly manipulated by the same people whose fall from power they are now mourning still can’t see through the charade. And, of course, the adult and logical way to express that mourning is to throw crap at the new people in power.
This, above everything, may explain why daytime and reality television has such high ratings.
Back to the flyover snafu. More from WCBS:
***************
Most witnesses who contacted WCBS were furious that local authorities hadn’t notified anyone about the fly-over. The FAA, however, says they contacted the NYPD, Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s Office, New Jersey state police and other local authorities were told ahead of time about the shoot.
The NYPD told WCBS, however, that they were instructed by the FAA not to publicize information regarding the incident.
****************
So, local authorities were notified but turned around and said that they weren’t after the public outcry. Whoever planned this didn’t think it through and the local authorities apparently weren’t paying attention to what the FAA was conveying.
And more overlooked details:
Officials say the shoot was part of a normal training mission. They added that they do the missions quite often.
“All we Trolls and assorted Republicans are asking is fair media coverage.”
And there really was an Easter Bunny, too, but Dick Cheney accidentally shot him. It’s okay, though, he didn’t know the gun was loaded.
I realize you said you lately only pop round every now and then for a “visit,” jerseygyrl, but perhaps you’ve already stayed too long at this particular “fair?” Lest we confuse your shoddy attempts at liberal noblesse oblige as the true spirit of “Lady Bountiful.” (Then too, lass, you descended into use of a totally gratuitous vulgarism, which is hardly the way to establish class.)
The good prof is hardly a “troll.” Rather, he remains, as ever, a skeptical, fairly non-partisan observer. But divers others (perhaps in the urged-on-us spirit of “happy news” of a politically liberal persuasion that seems to suddenly prevail here) jump on his skepticism and seek an excuse with which to drive him away. Which is low and shabby on their own parts. But probably also part and parcel of the general drift of this site of late.
Even the “debate” here about the quality of Fox News is seemingly conducted without any familiarity with the actual (daytime, not to be confused with the nightly talk shows) content of said channel.
It is traditional round the 100-day point of a Presidential administration to try and assess both its apparent successes to date and its fitire intentions. Save for the shooting of three pirates which is totally applaudable, I find the Obama presidency a bit chilling. One of his especially dumb mistakes (which I’ve read he actually wrote himself) was claiming in a speech that Islam has played an “important role” in the unfolding of American history. That one would come as a complete surprise to the assorted Deists, Presbies and Episcopalians (and stray Papist) who signed the Declaration of Independence.
Nor, to the chagrin of Armenians everywhere (and on this one we should probably all be Armenians), does Obama apparently believe that the Turks indeed practiced genocide against them. Well, at the least he didn’t dare sy so.
Then there is all that financial stuff. Who indeed is going to lend the US $2-3 TRILLION over the next few weeks? Ob-la-di, ob-la-dah….
Obama needs to be judged on his own merit, not constantly in comparison to Bush..
One of his especially dumb mistakes (which I’ve read he actually wrote himself) was claiming in a speech that Islam has played an “important role” in the unfolding of American history.
Actually, what he said in Turkey was:
Try as I might, I could not find the text you quoted so eloquently. Of course you know what he actually said and ‘important role’ are two different things, especially given your pompous use of the Shakespearean ‘divers.’
Looney III: I heard that claim too, which none of the press (right-wing, left-wing, chicken-wing, whatever) seems to have followed. Was there a memo? A PR Release Who got it and when? Did they tell Oprah?
As an observer, participant, and instigator in many a communications problem, it is rare that the problem is completely caused by one person. As Hilary said, “It takes a village.” What she didn’t account for was that the village might have employed too many of its idiots.
ALL politicians make the occasional “gaffe” or “misspeak.” Because ALL humans also do so. How many times have you mistakenly confused the names of your kids or grandkids today? How many times did you lose your train of thought mid-sentence? It’s normal.
If Bush had only had those normal lapses, no one would have cared or noticed. It was the fact that it was constant. And, they were brutal misspeaks.
But, the media did not jump on these. Did liberals? Sure, partisans always will. In fact, we critiqued the media for always correcting Bush’s quotes in the paper so that it looked like he actually spoke English.
The right’s attack on the whole “teleprompter” thing is ridiculous. First, all leaders use them. Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, etc. When’s the last time you memorized speeches daily?
Does anyone REALLY think that you get to be the #1 student at Harvard Law by not having a brain? It just seems rather pitiful. And, this stuff is really only perpetuated by the fringe on the right. Everyone else thinks it is silly.
By all means, be partisan if you wish. I’ll be the same should the Republicans ever gain an ounce of credibility and win another election. But, you should at least be aware of how silly you sound.
The “important role” notation was my own modest interpretation of Obama’s remarks. (It’s done all the time by Keith Olbermann, to cite just one one precursor.)
But what has Islam done to shape the world, specifically the American world? Did it play a role in the Civil War (Islam’s general support of the slave trade, even today, nothwithstanding)? In the settling of the American West? Even in WWII, the best I recall of Islam’s contribution to the war effort was the raising of one smallish-sized military division…Oh, wait, that was for the Waffen SS.
I think of Islam, Mike91, and I recall the “Great Siege of Malta,” the sea battle of Lepanto, the late 17th century siege of Vienna, the reconquista of Spain and, of course, the great victory near Tours of Charles Martel. WIthout these events, we’d have all had an opportunity, you betcha, to live, as Obama once did, in a Muslim country. Yet I really don’t think too many of us would have liked it all that much.
The “important role” notation was my own modest interpretation of Obama’s remarks. (It’s done all the time by Keith Olbermann, to cite just one one precursor.)
Meaning, “I made it up.” I guess we were supposed to react to your strawman, instead of call you on it. I apologize.
And to deny that one of the world’s major religions has not helped ‘shape’ the world (for good or ill) is to deny reality.
I’m not at all denying that Islam is either one of the world’s major religions or that it’s done much to shape the world, Mike91. But you miss my core point, that much, maybe even most, of what it’s done to shape said world is quite for “ill,” as you put it.
The reality of Islamic life cannot be denied, of course. Yet I continue to wonder if you in particular would like to experience it at its fullest. It is not so much a mere faith as it is a complete prescription for living one’s life, after all, and even moderate Muslims endorse a fundamentalist creed from which all good American political liberals would flee were it posited as, say, “Southern Baptism.”
Mike,
Did you really site Obama’s Leno appearance as “proof” of his speaking ability?
They same interview where he offended and had to (again) apologize to the Special Olympics and all disabled folks?
And is use of the teleprompter– as reported in the NYTimes is beyond ANY previous President. He uses it for EVERYTHING.
No note cards, or a piece of paper.
He’s no Bill Clinton– who could form a complete sentence, lace in a story and remember everyone’s name off the top of his head.
But hey, I’m just a right-wing, FoxNews spewing troll…… (Isn’t that what we call folks who don’t worship Obama?)
Isn’t it a bit of a canard to speak of American history (or that of any other nation) outside of the context of world history? Given that Islamic and Judeo-Christian peoples have been beating the shit out of each other regularly for many more centuries than the USA has existed tends to make me think that Abdullah Jefferson and Ali Hamilton might have had some inkling of the Islamic world’s influence on contemporary politics in the late 1700′s…
And the use of quotation marks, Mike91, in government documents as much as in mere blog posts, can signify almost nothing. Yes, language has become that debased. By divers others both Democratic and Republican
So you wished to overrate an interpretative connotation of my own which used quote marks, to see it as a mine placed underneath the case I was trying to make. Nah, not really.
Nor, I continue to suggest, was Obama’s somewhat desperate-sounding hailing of Islam all that reassuring. Oh well, at least round the same time we were popping Somali pirates.
And is use of the teleprompter– as reported in the NYTimes is beyond ANY previous President. He uses it for EVERYTHING.
Which makes him what? Not smart enough to get into Harvard? Which affects his policies or how he governs how? Let’s say, point taken he uses the teleprompter to talk to his wife. So what?
And feel free to ignore the rest of my post where I ask you to refute the White House contention.
The reality of Islamic life cannot be denied, of course. Yet I continue to wonder if you in particular would like to experience it at its fullest. It is not so much a mere faith as it is a complete prescription for living one’s life, after all, and even moderate Muslims endorse a fundamentalist creed from which all good American political liberals would flee were it posited as, say, “Southern Baptism.”
Why would you wonder that? I wonder if you’re suggesting that because of the speech Obama made, perhaps you think he is leading us down that path. Echoes of the overuse of his middle name during the campaign, don’t you think?
So you wished to overrate an interpretative connotation of my own which used quote marks, to see it as a mine placed underneath the case I was trying to make. Nah, not really.
Keep trying to wriggle out of what you implied with what Obama really said. Now “quotes don’t mean anything,” especially to someone who pretends to write as concisely as yourself. Oh brother.
What’s sad is that the Islamic people would have probably made many useful contributions to the world at large if they didn’t have such tyrannical governments ruling them. Not a great environment for creativity, ingenuity and collective consciousness.
Just where is one’s petard, anyway?
No, Conan, it is not at all a canard. It is Islam which seeks to stand, so to speak, outside history. But its frequent attempts to impose itself unwllingly on Western civilization suggest otherwise. That Islam seems to believe its course of both adherence and “empire” (all those who wish for the restoration of the Caliphate, for example) is inexorable does not necessarily make it so. My hope is that Western, Judeao-Christian civilization will continue to prevail.
I’d also maintain that both Hamilton and Jefferson gave little or no thought to Islam during their heyday. Save, perhaps, as it related to the existence of both the slave trade and the Barbary Pirates. Don’t be silly, in other words. Nothing in the Declaration of Independence or the Koran can be traced originally to ideas expressed in the Q’ran or to anything supposedly uttered by the Prophet (pbuh).
And Mike91, you’re coming off as exceptionally dense with your last post. Obama made a carefully calculated statement about Islam which worrisome others have called him out about. It would, understandably for the purposes of diplomacy, have been altogether too much to have otherwise expected Obama to make a realistic assessment about the effect of Islam on both world and American history.
But that doesn’t necessarily make even his mild-sounding (to you, certainly) remarks any less foolish and to be called into question. So oh brother back atcha!
Don’t confuse me, either, with those who use Obama’s middle name so often when referring to him, that was just desperate on your part. But do drop us all a line should you ever move off to Yemen or Libya re your impressions as to what it’s really like to live in an Islamic nation.
Mrs. M – while the West was in the midst of it’s own dark ages, the Moors in Seville had quite a period of enlightment, and collaborated with Christian and Jewish scholars.
I disagree, Ms. Martta. Arabic, Persian, and South Asian Islamic cultures have been some of the most prolific creators and supporters of art forms in history. Today’s militant Islamic gangs — and the governments they control or terrorize — have created the environment of which you accurately speak. It is not the culture of Islam that has failed, it is the Islamics who have embraced the ability to rule by terror who have failed the religion.
Mike,
You keep with the Harvard stuff as some indication of brains.
Didn’t your pal Bush go there too?
And maybe I’m nuts, but I’m sure Harvard produces its share of book smart, dolts.
Further, yes. His constant use of the teleprompter tells me much about his confidence in his ability to speak off the cuff— witness Leno.
But who cares?
He’s running up a debt that I have to go work to pay off…….
I meant today’s tyrannical govts. Sorry for any confusion.
Jerseygurl, jerseygurl, as usual you are much mistaken, this time about conditions in Moorish Spain (a Spain which, to the best of my recollection, didn’t in fact even wish to become Islamic when successive waves of North African invaders ravaged it).
A) The “Dark Ages” were well before the Middle Ages of Moorish Spain’s heyday. And in the Middle Ages, the great monasteries of Europe were equal to, in not plainly superior, to the Moorish academies of Spain in terms of scientific and scholastic achievement.
B) As the historian Richard Fletcher’s books and cited original sources make quite clear, in the main Moorish scholars in Seville and elsewhere in Iberian did not cooperate liberally with either Christian or Jewish scholars. The Jews, in particular, were prized by their conquerors as an administrative class, not as scholarly peers per se. And the Christians were similarly just ignored or merely discriminated against in so many ways. (As in the exacting of the dhimmi, a special tax against unbelievers. There was also a common proscription against martial training for Christians, lest those conquered people grew a mite restless.) Forever, too, the uninvited Islamic bootheel remained upon the populations of the conquered areas of Spain.
You can still post so mal-informedly, jerseygulr, but don’t expect folks who’ve read a real bit about the period not to call you out about it.
But that doesn’t necessarily make even his mild-sounding (to you, certainly) remarks any less foolish and to be called into question. So oh brother back atcha!
Maybe if you got his remarks right in the first place (i.e., not as incediary as you portrayed) I’d agree with you.
Further, yes. His constant use of the teleprompter tells me much about his confidence in his ability to speak off the cuff— witness Leno.
Again so important in running the country.
He’s running up a debt that I have to go work to pay off…….
Hey! A cogent criticism! Who did you let log into your machine?
Assorted Islamic nations may have been supportive of the decorative arts and of architecture (and some science, especially mathematics and astronomy), Conan. But always such support came with strictures, and forbidding penalties should artists dare “stray.”
As for instance with the quite common abhorrence throughout Islam towards visual representations of the Prophet. Even as the arts were nurtured in the cultures you cite, in other words, there were always arbitrary limits on such, limits which were all the harsher to deal with if the offenders happened to be Christians residing in Muslim lands. (The so-called “hidden frescoes” of ancient Armenia’s churches are but one example of this; there are probably thousands of others.) The situation is probably even much worse today, as I hope you’ll agree.
“It is Islam which seeks to stand, so to speak, outside history. But its frequent attempts to impose itself unwllingly on Western civilization suggest otherwise.”
Christianity has been imposing itself unwillingly on civilizations for centuries. Crusades much? Spanish conquistadors much?
“It is not so much a mere faith as it is a complete prescription for living one’s life, after all”
What is the Bible again? I grew up in a Christian home and we were always taught that the correct way to live our lives was according to the Bible, only excepting animal sacrifice and things of that kind.
Anyone can apply the same criticisms of Islam that you’re touting as exclusive to Islam to Christianity. Just a thought.
I can’t resist pointing out that the rise of a Chuck Berry, Lou Reed, Merle Haggard, Buck Owens or Bruce Springsteen-like figure would be impossible, at any time in history, in any Islamic nation. Instead, we get a very tentative Cat Stevens transmuted, albeit mildly and in defanged form, into Yusuf Islam. And certainly no Updike, Faulkner, et al.
(On the other hand, there’d be no Amy Winehouse, Boy George, Geto Boys or Eminem. Nor even a Neil Walsch or Mary Higgins Clark. Darn, why is there always a tradeoff?)
The Crusaders, Kaity, were actually attempting to regain for Christendom the lands of their fellow Orthodox Christian brethren of the Byzantine empire. They did not view themselves therefore as either aggressors or conquerors. but rather as “reclaimers.” They were also greatly dismayed by the sluggishness of the Byzantines to assist in the retaking of their own lands, thus eventually also quite happy to try and rule such lands for themselves. (The Armenians, who welcomed Crusader aid and freely married their dowried daughters off to French nobles, were much more willing to act in their own religious and political interests and defense.) Perhaps you either forgot this or just didn’t realize it in the first place?
You’re also much, MUCH mistaken about the respective intended roles of the Q’ran and Bible in believers’ lives. Even the skepticism about the literalness of the Bible regularly expressed in the august pages of Biblical Archaeology Review, this would not fly for one second in Islamic countries.
There is no comparable Christian doctrine or even scriptural exhortation to jihad. (The hymnn “Onward Christian Soldiers” doesn’t count.) And even the constantly misunderstood by so many Crusades are not remotely equivalent to the various attempted invasions of Western Europe from the time of Charles Martel through the 17th century by various Arab, North African and Ottoman armies. There really is a difference, and to maintain otherwise is a mistake.
Even as I agree that the excesses of the Spanish conquistadors were very unfortunate, but also have to note that even those guys were in fact welcomed as liberators and actively supported by other tribes which felt the lash of the Incan and Aztec empires. For good reason, too, as history makes clear.
From an insensitive photoshoot involving Air Force One….Obama and his teleprompter…bumbling Bush minus the teleprompter….regurgitated Fox news…Easter Bunny shot by Dick Cheney…Islam’s shaping of the world…the Dark Ages…Crusades…Chuck Berry, Buck Owens…even Bruce Stringsteen. Now this is what I call evolution. Thanks for the entertainment during lunch.
I was looking less for screed and more for the local reaction from people who work downtown.
At the risk of drawing accusations of attacking the Barista ad hominem, I would like to point out with all due respect that I for one don’t give a rat’s behind what you were looking for. I don’t have an explanation for Ms. Quokka’s recent transformation into this site’s school marm, but it’s getting tiresome. Now we’re handing out lollipops to those who come up with the proper feeling? Good lord. This campaign has nothing at all to do with “civility,” and probably never did.
Perhaps someone could recommend a good psychotherapist?
Cathar,
Reading your posts, I can’t help picturing the guy with a pony-tail from the bar scene in “Good Will Hunting”. You know the one who is really good at memorizing things and likes to regurgitate facts he has read in obscure textbooks to impress others or make them feel inadequate.
With that being said, time and time again you impress me with your (what I assume to be) favorite musicians. Maybe add Arthur Conley, Sam and Dave, George Jones, and Conway Twitty to the above list…And Buck Owens’ “Act Naturally” is the most underrated song of all time.
And of course, Cathar’s “facts” are not at all skewed by a decidedly Christian point of view.
One of his especially dumb mistakes (which I’ve read he actually wrote himself) was claiming in a speech that Islam has played an “important role” in the unfolding of American history.
Someone fell asleep in history class!
Just to get you up to speed cathar.
Your view of history is decidedly one-sided and very pro-Christian, cathar. And more importantly, wrong. A person can spend 10 minutes reading Wikipedia and realize that, nevermind someone who actually has studied Islamic influence on western civilization.
If you’re interested in dismantling some of that brainwashing, I recommend Massey’s A Book of Beginnings. Both volumes. And Yurugu by Dr. Marimba Ani.
I was getting bored lately on Baristanet. Four, maybe 7 posts per item. Now this airplane story, and whoa!
I thought by now Iceman and Professor Wms had blown arteries cos they couldn’t bitch about Obama for weeks on their local website. That must’ve hurt.
Walleroo
You know there going to make you stand in the corner for that one. Don,t you? LOL
At the risk of drawing accusations of attacking the Barista ad hominem, I would like to point out with all due respect that I for one don’t give a rat’s behind what you were looking for.
Whose opinion, besides your own, do you give a rat’s behind about?
I don’t have an explanation for Ms. Quokka’s recent transformation into this site’s school marm, but it’s getting tiresome. Now we’re handing out lollipops to those who come up with the proper feeling? Good lord. This campaign has nothing at all to do with “civility,” and probably never did.
I didn’t mention civility. I mentioned the stupidity of people hijacking a perfectly good topic to blather about teleprompters.
Perhaps someone could recommend a good psychotherapist?
I agree. You appear to need one.
Meanwhile, Republican Senator Arlen Specter is now joining the Dem party.
And the 60 vote magic is around the bend.
Sorry Iceman. you’ll have to take the Prof and crew to one of those all white bars with huge American flags over the counter and drink yourselves into oblivion.
To loosely paraphrase that sadistic Nazi dude in Raiders, holding the glowing poker to Fraulien Ravenwood’s face:
“your time has passed”.
You should take Hannity with ya.
So Ms Quokka is policing topic threads now? At least you admit it. I mention civility because a while back you indicated that that’s what you are asking for from us. (Your reply was, I believe, “Bingo.”) Clearly it’s not about civility.
Sorry for the psychotherapist quip. That was going a bit too far.
Commenting, walleroo, not policing. You’ll know it when I police.
Well, jerseygurl and several others, yes, I do post from a Judeao-Christian perspective. But then I grew up in a Judeao-Christian culture, so why should that be surprising? If the rest of you wish to portray yourselvess as more liberated products of a more “diverse” sort of cultural background, feel free. And could you also pay my dhimmi tax for me when it comes due?
None of this, too, jerseygurl, excuses the appalling ignorance of so many on this site about either history or religious history in particular.
Papaghandi, I have no intention of reading any slobber you suggest, so don’t waste your time. But you in turn might simply try reading, say, Richard Fletcher’s “Moorish Spain” (please read it aloud to jerseygurl, come to think of it) or Jonathan Riley-Smith’s “Why The Crusades.”
Actually, too, King_Harvest, my familiarity with history is better grounded than that of, say, Cliff Klavan. Nor do I care at all what you make of my musical tastes. (But I was lucky enough to see Buck Owens play live at the height of his powers when Don Rich was still alive, and for free, in Macy’s sporting goods dept.) I also haven’t had hair long enough for a pony tail since, oh, age 25 or so; that appalling practice seems best reserved to grey-haired “dudes” with thinning hair, of whom I see quite too many at concerts like that with Eric Andersen last Saturday night.
I’m also a little puzzled by the proprietress/editress’s “dialogue” with walleroo (who has always stood foursquare for sanity in his core posts) above. There’s something of the tight-corseted schoolmarm there, and possibly a slight bit of menace in the tone.
Certainly the idea of an editor having this sort of public exchange with a loyal reader is, well, maybe a bit unseemly? It’s definitely not common journalistic practice. One wonders if it presages the future, and if it’s out of the Jeff Jarvis playbook.
What? No possibilities of racism, You’re slipping.
Loyal reader? Someone tells me they don’t give a rat’s ass what I think, calls me a school marm and says I need a shrink, and you call my reaction unseemly?
The “real” journalists of whom you are so enamored, cathar, don’t have “privilege” of having their readers disparage them after ever story. But I unfortunately have the great honor. Therefore this “unseemly exchange” is new in the annals of journalism. I’d love to see Mark Porter deal with the likes of you on a daily basis.
I am allowed to comment here just the same as anybody else. And if either you or walleroo don’t like it, I will be happy to show you the door. In fact, cathar, I’d be happy to show you the door right now. And I’m sure the majority of my readers would be happy if you walked out.
Just commenting? You own the site, Ms. Quokka, so yours are not just any old comments, just as, say, Vladimir Putin never merely expresses an idle opinion. When the school teacher walks up and down the aisle wagging her finger at some and handing out lollipops to others, she’s not just being one of the guys. You even went so far, above, as to make an implied threat. (“You’ll know it when I police.”) How far is this going to go? Are you going to start banning people who don’t praise your novels? I am genuinely surprised and perplexed that you would flirt with undermining the lively little community (of nutcases, perhaps, in which group I include myself) you’ve allowed to flourish here. It would be a mistake to try and turn this into a Ms. Quokka vanity site, but that seems to be the general tenor, insofar as I can discern one.
walleroo,
I can’t tell you the number of people who thanked me, in emails and in person, the last time I used the comment section to call out both you and cathar.
Here’s one:
Here’s another:
You seem to think that the success or failure of Baristanet depends on the unfettered right of a few anonymous posters to act like bullies whenever they want. It does not.
And whether you call me Ms. Quokka or Deb, you are still a coward and you are still getting way too personal. “Are you going to start banning people who don’t praise you novels?” “It would be a mistake to try to turn this into a Ms. Quokka vanity site.” Some 9000 visits a day says that this is in no way a vanity site. But if I need a consultant to give me advice on business practices, I’ll find one who uses a real name. Contact me with one, and we can have a conversation.
Tell them to stuff it, Debbie.
>I’d love to see Mark Porter deal with the likes of you on a daily basis.
What a thing to wish on such a nice guy.
Deb
I have to tell you over the years i do enjoy Batistanet. And in my mind you are way with in you rights to defend your self when attacked like the rest om us.
As far as verbal bulling that goes on here well its been like that since the first day i have been on the site. Is it right? Of coarse it isn,t but its been going on for years.
I have to say i enjoy cather The man is very bright and i do enjoy the cather and mikey show. I do agree with you he has gone above and beyond on attacking you and this sight and i would have booted him moons ago for that. Just my opinion
Like a vengeful Odysseus, Ms Galant is expelling the “guests” who have violated the code of hospitality. It is to be, like the original scene all of those years ago, a bloody affair.
I enjoy the comments and the edginess, but I can see how it could wear thin at times. Especially when, as has happened so often, virtually ANY thread is hijacked by the hate-Obama or hate-Bush crowd. Perhaps there could be an on-going political thread where these folks could have at each other, with the rest of the site given over to items of local interest.
It is wise to remember, as Kinky Friedman said (albeit in a poltically incorrect manner), when you buy the land, you get the Indians.
LOL, cro!!!
Duh, Why shouldn’t Madam Barista be able to respond? Why should it bother anyone when she defends herself?
Isn’t one of the benefits of this board that she allows the free and open exchange of thoughts, ideas, suggestions and complaints…why should she be left out of the fun?
Now, let me get back to bashing B.Hussein Obama…blah…blah…blah
As a fan of this site, and someone who does use their real name,
things have been much nicer, and no less interesting since
Debbie asked for civility. In fact, it’s been great to read so many new posters comments! The verbal bulling (to borrow Dr. Doom’s phrase) could be very intimidating to lurking readers, and would-be posters. Thank you, Debbie!
However, I also want to speak up for Cathar, in particular (and no, I don’t know him). His posts about “real” topics (not the sparring
posts) are a true education. I often find myself reading up on things he’s mentioned, and/or looking up words I didn’t know!
As a Jewish lefty liberal, I rarely agree with Cathar’s politics — but who cares? I love hearing/talking about/reading other people’s opinions! I’m guessing that most people do. I do hope you’ll stick around, Cathar.
Finally, maybe we could have an offshoot of Baristanet (like Baristakids) for posters who like to partake in verbal mud-wrestling (you know who you are!:). The rest of us (more timid/easily hurt types like me) could enjoy the entertainment ( it is a lot of fun, when it isn’t too cruel),
without being subjected to these posts on the main site.
BaristaSmackDown?
To cater to those who lurk, scared to post doesn’t sound like the best plan.
I know if I see certain names on the “Recent Posts” section of the home page, I click.
Likewise, what of those stories that get no comments? If I saw few if any comments on stories, I would think that nothing was happening with the site and go elsewhere. Moreover, if the “Recent Post” are old, I’d do the same.
Because, I believe there is a direct correlation between the number of comment/commentors and those 9k visitors.
Maybe I’m wrong. And maybe you are willing to find out…
But, to just have a site that features few if any, milquetoast, agreeable post may be acceptable for some, but it I’ll check back much less frequently.
My biggest fear though, is that Baristanet for all my love of it and the barista’s, may become the Myspace to a Facebook that has yet to launch here–.
I agree with Deborah Broide; I find the comments here to be educational and enjoy reading all the posts, whether or not I agree. It’s unfortunate when disagreeemnt on an issue deteriorates into name-calling and intolerance (That applies to the “real world,” too, not just here).
As I believe Mrs. M said recently, Cathar certainly doesn’t need anyone to defend him but he certainly brings a wealth of knowledge to the site and I think B’net is better for that. It would be a shame if he went away.
I do think, though, that a commenter who consistently bashes the site needs to post elsewhere.
P.S. I always enjoy the sense of humor many of you have and often come away laughing. That is reason enough to come back here daily.
Agreed, Nellie. But why just single out Cathar? (I’m not addresses you directly, Nellie, but to everyone who’s calling out Cathar). Cathar is certainly not the only poster on here who has resorted to name-calling, “bullying,” speaking his mind whether the ideas are popular or not. So yeah, I’m a little perplexed about all the Cathar-bashing.
In this case, I singled out Cathar in response to Debbie Galant’s posting of 10:02 last night that many people would not be unhappy if he walked away. But yes, there are others who have resorted to name calling and bullying.
Don’t let me come back there and Google!
The double standard is what prompted my Quokka vanity comment. On the issue of being “too personal, the Barista crossed that Rubicon herself by, for instance, singling out individual posters for praise and scorn. She did it by calling some people cowards for not using their real names. (Surely she doesn’t mean everyone on the site who posts anonymously is a coward. Apparently she doesn’t think that the people who praised her for her public and personal bullying of cathar are cowards, even though their identities have no been revealed to us.) Apparently she thinks the right to be “too personal” should be hers alone, presumably because it’s her site. Which brings us to vanity.
Bullies come in all shapes and sizes. Just because you have a mob on your side doesn’t make you any less of one. Especially when you own the pulpit.
Slightly OT (what else is new?) but interesting:
http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/79295.html
No, walleroo, not everyone who posts anonymously. Only those who attack anonymously, like you.
Cathar draws all the heat because he’s sort of the blog equivalent of the guy on the bus who had a cruciferous dinner. Lots of Baristanet posters have a fave sparring partner, but Cathar never posts without some act of personal aggression. And in the same way as that nasty coworker who constructs a crazy deadline to wreck everyone’s holiday weekend just because her poor family relationships mean she has nowhere to go is in reality a sympathetic character (“how damaged she must be to behave that way…”), surely there is a heart wrenching explanation for Cathar; nevertheless, it still smells of beans and broccoli in here after he’s through sometimes.
I think everyone needs to just ‘chill the f*ck out!!’.
Debbie, Please don’t ban Cathar or Walleroo!!!!
If either of them starts to use the DB word then you have my permission to cut them loose, but until then, Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amen, MB2. People, remember, this is just a blog. This is not your living room. You can walk away from the computer if things get crazy. Don’t take everything so seriously.
Only those who attack anonymously
Meaning, of course, only those who attack the Barista anonymously. That’s what’s operative here.
But of course that response leaves the larger question untouched.
So it’s ok to attack me anonymously, walleroo?
Yes, I respond most to personal attacks against me. I’m human. (Actually, consider this, walleroo: I am not just words on a screen, but a real human being, with feelings.) But the other day, a commenter went way over the line and wished cathar dead. I had the comment removed immediately and the commenter warned.
And Mrs. Martta, it is just a blog, but it is also MY living room, and my livelihood. So I can’t walk away.
This is what really irks me. We work our butts off with a small staff, making sure people know what streets are closed, when the trains aren’t running, what cool events are coming up etc. It’s an around-the-clock proposition. In thanks, certain posters wearing masks track mud in our living room and then complain that the rug is dirty and they don’t like the drinks. And they think they’re the life of the party, and we should be thanking them!
Debbie: My comment was not directed at you. I DO appreciate all you do and am grateful for this blog. There really is nothing else like it around.
“…certain posters wearing masks track mud in our living room and then complain that the rug is dirty and they don’t like the drinks. And they think they’re the life of the party, and we should be thanking them!”
This sounds like my job on certain days. Point being that every livelihood has its occupational hazards, toxic people, pains in the asses, annoyances, people who just don’t get it, etc.
Debbie,
You and your staff have created a wonderful web-site chock full of good info and interesting local stories. I’m sure that 99% of your visitors will echo this sentiment and say ‘Bravo!’.
You have a tough job but don’t make it tougher than it needs to be. All the b.s. about the journalistic ‘integrity’ of Baristanet is just a bunch of smoke. Keep on keeping on girl and please write another novel. I loved the last one!
Debbie, I am grateful for the blog, too, and while I expressed support for cathar above, I do think he started to go way over the top in his criticisms of you and B’net.
Again, if people don’t like it, they shouldn’t come to the site to post every day.
I know you’re a real human being, Debbie, and I too am grateful for this blog (to which I devote far, far too much time for my own good!). I also think y’all have done a great job, and lately are doing even better on the reporting front. This is a great site. Your success is well deserved.
I get no kicks out of attacking anybody (outside of the daily argumentation that we’ve come to love here, of course). I just can’t sit back and watch a poster (cathar) get hounded off the site, without saying something about it, is all. I’m the first to admit he’s a pain in the hind quarters (I have been the object of many of his attacks, and the archives will back me up here), but he’s no hans. And I don’t like lynchings.
Going back to the original topic that inspired this thread, the Daily News (I think) had a great headline:
SCARE FORCE ONE
Not sure of which paper..I glanced at it briefly when walking out of King’s last night.
Finally — *sigh* — our kumbaya moment.
Now, there’s an almost virgin post on Obama’s 100-day mark: go forth and scribble.
Nellie: I also saw Air Farce One somewhere.
I seem to be coming late to the debate on this one. But I don’t think I really need folks to speak up for me, even as I thank them (including those who did so with but faint praise).
Rather, what is bothersome here, in a journalistic sense, is the seeming presumption here that a sort of “group think” has to prevail, in order to ensure Baristanet tranquility. I mean, gosh, golly gee, if we can just get rid of one or two really harsh critics, everything will be fun again. And then later on we can get rid of the loudly prominent “class warrior” here and next maybe perhaps someone who admitted he or she is a registered Republican, and…Really, all this is scary. Smacks more of a system which was once held together by gauleiters than by genuine editors and elected representatives.
And this is important because this site claims to be journalism, real journalism. (Nellie, too, if you think my comments have been over the top at times, I can simply guess that you haven’t been around much, especially in journalism circles.)
I gather Debbie is feeling exceptionally thin-skinned of late. Whether or not this is justified in her case, she should be reminded that such “heat” as she takes is always part of the journalistic territory. Maybe not part of the Red Queen’s lawn party arrangements, but definitely part of what supposedly constitutes journalism.
Really, too, the small-staff and “we work our butts off” defense doesn’t wash so well (and the dirtied carpet analogy was both quite unfair and nothing that, say, you’d ever hear the top folks at either the NYDN or the WSJ desperately dragging out). Since no matter how hard one does work on and for this site, I have to assume it’s for both profit and prestige. Not just as a great, free boon for the community.
One thing I have occasionally wondered about in my posts is, of course, if this bully pulpit that is Baristanet hasn’t also allowed for some too obvious praise of friends and friends’ ventures. This vein of commmentary, too, is rather common in journalism, as I’m sure any editorial employee of a daily or weekly newspaper could readily affirm. So the heat builds in the kitchen, as Harry Truman knew. The “solution” is not thus to turn up another burner or two.
Also, when it’s been convenient to your purposes, Debbie, you’ve used the names of certain posters, self included, as occasion for your own special brand of raillery. In headlines and “polls,” yet without the permission of the readers/poster so pilloried. I used to accept this in relative good humor, but it was always clear to me that it crossed yet another journalistic barrier.
I honestly don’t know why you seem so touchy lately, even as I note that you also seem quite a bit more actively engaged in general in overseeing (should we call it “editing?”) this site. Yet if you’re going to claim that this is journalism, you should also be prepared to operate as journalism professionals do, no? Even your petty dispute with walleroo above (in which he admirably comes off, to my way of thinking, as the very heir to John Peter Zenger, if not also William Lloyd Garrison), it’s shrilly non-professional, petty and unnecessary. Not worth your time and your journalistic effort. I just hope you eventually realize this.
Finally, that you, by implication at the very least, claim that anyone’s remarks cause unbearable offense and impede your successful operation of this still pretty good site, that’s just overrating the importance of anyone and anything they post. I hope you can someday acknowledge this, too. (Along with the point that during a pretty pokey period for Baristanet in general, hey, you’re suddenly back to the “good old days” of 100+ posts for an initially innocuous item.)
Y’all have a good day, and special compliments to walleroo, too.
Who cut the cheese?
Oh never mind. It’s just another post from Cathar.
I’m just not going to read cathar’s comment, because I’d kind of like to go out, pick up a book that’s waiting for me, plant things and enjoy the rest of the day. If he said anything I need to know (besides the phrase “thin skinned,” which just popped out at me), would somebody send me an executive summary on Facebook?
Since I’m not one of your FB friends, here’s the takeaway from cathar’s comment:
“Even your petty dispute with walleroo above… it’s shrilly non-professional, petty and unnecessary. Not worth your time and your journalistic effort. I just hope you eventually realize this.”
He’s right.
It sounds very much like someone let the kids stay up until 3:00 AM and drink soda for months on end.
Now though, she wants the kids in bed by 8:00 and can’t understand why they won’t go quietly.
I enjoy the site, but the whinging about the tone and content of the posters is a bit much. The posters are doing what they were allowed — in fact, encouraged — to do. When personal attacks occur, or profanity-laced spews issue forth, then by all means that should be stopped. But if the objection is that one’s feelings are being hurt well, I’d argue that you don’t play a contact sport if you don’t want to get hit. Or hit back, by the way.
As for anonymity, that is what the majority of posters seem to want. If it had been required that posters reveal themselves before coming on board, I’m guessing that many of the folks who post here would not have joined in. Myself included. What does the validity of a comment, or lack of same, have to do with knowing the name of the commenter?
I do cannot buy the “we work hard and this is the thanks we get” line. It doesn’t work in any paid endeavor. One works hard, presumably, to gain financial and professional rewards. Most often, there is no pat on the back, and certainly no one hesitates to let you know when they don’t like what you’ve done. I’ll suggest the “we work our butts off” approach to some harried clerk at the DMV next time I’m there.
Cathar, and everyone else here, should be able to speak freely on any topic they choose. If others are bothered by it, they can elect to pass it by, or to refute it.
Or they can make a list of those who are OK and those who are not, and use it to ban those on the latter list.
Or, if they own the ball, they can take it and go home and end the game for everyone.
Cathar, and everyone else here, should be able to speak freely on any topic they choose. If others are bothered by it, they can elect to pass it by, or to refute it.
Funny, I think most people feel quite the opposite.
First off, this is a private site. It’s not subject to the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Free Speech doesn’t exist here either. The First Amendment protects us against state oppression or legal sanction for our words. It does not entitle everyone with an opinion to freely comment on a private blog. To believe or to demand otherwise would be to say that our free speech rights outweigh the rights of Debbie & Co. (from here on referred to as D&CO.) of this site to determine what messages they will allow on their dime. To hear such a suggestion coming from a stalwart Republican like cathar is even more preposterous.
You also suggest that if people are bothered by cathar’s statements or anyone else’, that they can elect to “pass by it or just refute it”. But how about, what I assume is the majority of readers, the people that just want to read posts and comment in a light-hearted manner? What about the majority of folks who come here for a break in the day to get some local news and are constantly assaulted by Iceman hijacking every thread with cries about Barack Hussein Obama, or cathar assaulting anyone and everyone when the mood strikes (and it seems to strike at least thrice daily)?
The thing is cro, you’re suggesting that the majority make accommodations for the few. And no, it’s in no way similar to handicapped bathroom stalls or any real life situations where disadvantaged persons are accommodated due to disabilities or disadvantages (although I do believe cathar is both mentally disabled and disadvantaged).
Sure I’ve been known to jump in the pit and trade blows whenever the topic of racism is breached or during the 08 election but even I would much more prefer a Baristanet where I visit every day to enjoy pleasant conversations with other area residents and get the scoop on some local news rather than a Baristanet I visit every day wondering what acid-tongued argument I will be greeted by. I’ll save my controversial debate topics for the sites I participate in that are actually aimed at those issues.
Baristanet should be a haven for residents to communicate and socialize. And unfortunately, in my opinion, cathar ruins that and so do the constant thread hijackings which turn a post about something innocent into tirades against Obama or liberals or whatever Limbaugh tells his dittoheads to be concerned about that day. Debbie provides plenty of occasional posts which allow for spirited political debate such as the “Obama First 100 Days” post and this very post about Air Force One. But when those posts inevitably turn to personal attacks and partisan tirades (usually committed by the same few people), it loses it’s allure.
“Baristanet should be a haven for residents to communicate and socialize.”
Show me the mission statement.
cro said, “speak freely.”
He did not use the– as you rightly point out– old hag: “I have a right to free speech…..”
So, no he’s not evoking a constitutional right, just the right of someone to speak and post here, freely.
But I can’t wait to see Baristanet 2.0– where all comments are happy– kinda like the news stations that tried HAPPY NEWS….
However, for all the public’s stated desire to see/hear HAPPY stories, no one watched.
So here, I fear, if the comments become like, say the Watercooler, it’ll just be a matter of time when we’re all on Patch or some other yet-to-be-launched local-blog rubber-necking the accident.
And 9k a day, will vanish. Again, MySpace to Facebook.
(Meanwhile, jersey and three others are on baristanet being nice to one another……)
Propaghandi, I’m not sure it’s possible to discuss politics or religion without the occasional tirade, because, even among the most open-minded, these are the issues that cut to one’s gut. And it seems here that the posts that divert to those topics are the ones that garner the greatest number of comments. And is it really so bad to spew venom over an issue, as long as the venom is aimed at the topic, not the individual who is expressing a particular point of view?
I believe the only way to make the site a gentle haven is to completely ban any discussion of religion or politics? Perhaps a mission statement does need to be re-established or simply defined.
et tu profwilliams?
Seriously, people can argue passionately, even angrily, without being jerks about it.
And I don’t think you’ll like Patch. It’s very soulless: the sliced, plastic-wrapped American cheese of hyperlocal journalism.
Prof and Nellie, I stated:
Debbie provides plenty of occasional posts which allow for spirited political debate such as the “Obama First 100 Days” post and this very post about Air Force One. But when those posts inevitably turn to personal attacks and partisan tirades (usually committed by the same few people), it loses it’s allure.
The conversation, as Debbie stated, is fine. Again, it’s the name-calling and the personal attacks that turn ones’ stomach. So while civil discourse on the topics Debbie creates which ARE about politics is desirable, there are a few people (namely cathar) here that have shown such a concept is beyond their abilities. The civil part, not the discourse. For one who claims to be such an erudite, he sure devolves into schoolyard name-calling and bullying a lot. I dunno…maybe hugs is all he needs.
And I agree Debbie. Patch is lifeless. I wish sincere luck to anyone who migrates there.
But who decides the jerks?
That’s the point.
The folks who lurk and don’t post, but email you?
And while Patch may be soulless, (if they’re plastic, wrapped American cheese, is this Smoked Gouda?) I remember early Baristanet…..
Just sayin’, it’s not hard to imagine another local blog here.
I just hope we don’t point to these bizarre “fights” as the moment this site-which I LOVE- jumped the shark.
Hey Prof,
I think it is pretty clear who the jerks are.
Laisse tomber…..
s’il vous plait.
Ok, relax.
If so clear, why not ban ‘em and stop with all the hand-wringing?
(Though cathar’s point of using his persona in headlines, etc. is well said.)
But hey, it ain’t my site.
If the powers want to ban, get on with it.
It’s just all the psycho-drama that is laughable.
But as someone who has been outed, attacked and called names, I don’t care– kinda hard to get upset at some anonymous poster on a blog.
Likewise, sometimes, I take a break.
And come back with a smile.
That’s what I was taught.
I guess for some it’s easier to cry.
dannygandhi, I am not making any sort of Constitutional argument. Of course the owners have the right to limit or proscribe any type of content, as they see fit. The legal issue is not in question, and the Constitution need not be hauled into this fray.
What IS at issue is the fact that the owners of the site INVITE comment, and to this point have allowed it to be for the most part unfettered. If they would like to change the M.O. now that’s fine, but it is a bit disingenuous to act as though they’ve never really liked it and are only now putting their collective feet down.
I also wonder how you know what the “majority” wants or expects. This must be the majority that doesn’t post — sort of the new “silent majority”. I don’t know what’s worse — censoring comment because you offend someone or censoring comment because you MIGHT offend someone, somewhere, at some time. From what I can see, most people who post here are quite capable of giving as good as they get, so are we now concerned about those who “cannot” defend themselves. That is just a tad condescending, I’d offer.
Anyway, I can always head down to the pub when I want an argument. Now that I’m now longer married.
The rest of yez will have to slug it out elsewhere.
Well, if Cather, profwilliams, Iceman and ROC get banned, I want to be banned with them.
Think back to all the Bush bashing, the name calling and the down right nasty posts when GWB was president. Why wasn’t civility called for then?
There are only a few of us on here who are not left wingnuts. If this is turning into the “Zero on a pedestal” group, then I want out anyway. I come here to read both viewpoints-not just the liberal ones. So, if you ban said group, then that is what you’ll have, a left-wing blog.
I love President Bush, miss him dearly and can’t stand ZERO! I don’t like his smugness, I don’t like his politics and I don’t like his arrogant wife.
(As I wrote on another thread, I’ve come around on Michelle. Despite that fact that I know her true self is the one who has deep, racial problems with American. I do think that she has changed and at the very least makes me smile when I see her rockin’ J Crew, planting a garden or just being my First Lady. I loved Laura Bush too. Different women for sure, but strangely alike in their deep love for their man and family. Ain’t nuthin’ wrong with that!)
As for Obama.
I hope he gets over trying to please everyone.
I have respect for folks I disagree with, as long as I believe they are committed.
I don’t think he always is……….
Yes, you’re right about them lovin their men and families but as for comparing them…like a turkey sandwich and Filet Mignon.
Let’s let some time go on before we decide.
And funny, Obama’s 100 day poll number do not point to a select cut of beef.
Moreover, remember Truman: He’s a hero now.
He left office with 22% approval rating.
History is funny like that.
Debbie, if you removed a post which wished me dead, you did me no favors. Lots of people have urged my demise, a fair number have actually tried. Two came close enough in Nam, in fact, to wound me.
But your dismissal of Patch was a bit cruel, no? Seconded by one of your sudden, quondam flunkies, and well up to your own usual standard of “snark.” But exactly the sort of thing, if offered up as an assessment of Baristanet, which would set you all a-boil again. I also think, papaghandi, that for you to offer up that this site should be a “haven” where locals can communicate and socialize, coming from you, is but obvious sucking-up. Too obvious, and from one who’s often quite cruel.
Jerseygurl, you just abased your own game above. Which I suppose is easier for you than actually knowing something about a topic before you post, but still…
I did, however, chortle at your use of the phrase “executive summary” re Facebook, Debbie. I’ve never even sent any bona fide executives I’ve known an “executive summary,” so I can only vaguely imagine the sort of minion (I doubt we’re talking real friends here) who might take that request from you seriously.
Nonetheless, your unbridled lacing into walleroo was unwarranted and unprofessional. I also hope you planted something more substantial today than the contempt you seem to have for both Patch and for people who dare disagree, even jocosely as walleroo sincerely attempted, with you.
Ok, Ok, I confess, I’m a jerk. Whew, that made me feel better. Its all my fault that I dared to stand up for the Republican party and ‘hi jacked’ this post.
I’m John L. Farrell and I approved this message.