Stately Tree Moved To Church Street For December Holiday Lighting

Who kindly donated the tree?

Oh, Look Son,

It's a HOLIDAY Tree.

little prof: Holiday Tree?

prof: Right son. While in private, only folks who celebrate Christmas have a trees, in our dumb society, we've created a fake, non-religious event around the same time as Christmas, called HOLIDAY.

On HOLIDAY, we exchange presents or hope we are good so--- someone-- will bring us presents...

On HOLIDAY, we can only speak of one religion IF WE INCLUDE ALL OTHERS-- just like the fun, exciting and offensive Gap Ad:

"Happy Dowhateveryouwannukah." "Go Christmas! Go Hannukah! Go Kwanzaa! Go Solstice!"

This stupidity is symbolized by the HOLIDAY TREE!

little prof: When is the Holiday Tree lighting?

prof: Beats me, but we have to prepare for our "feats of strength" and the "airing of grievances" as we celebrate Festivus....

prof, please don't horrify us with reminders that you have spawned.

You should be jealous poupon, the little prof was blessed with Barrack-style charm and grace.

Something we already know you lack.

Hi Fran...thanks for posting this, and the link to other segments of Inside Montclair.

The Family that donated the tree will be known later on, when I try to interview them at the Tree Lighting gig..I always wait till that time, so we could actually say hi, and thank them...and get their reaction about what they did for the community. FYI, I don't know who they are yet either.

As stated above, the Tree Lighting will be held on Dec. 4th...a bit after 5pm, or so.

As far as calling it a Holiday Tree..yeah, it's not my call...the township calls it that, I just follow suit...to me it's a Christmas Tree.

Festivus, for the rest of us!

I'm with Prof on this one. It's not a frakin' holiday tree (no such thing). It's a Christmas tree!

Calling it a "holiday tree" lets them get away with putting up a Christmas Tree and feeling all kinds of good about it.

They should just call it a Christmas Tree and say screw you to whomever doesn't like it. No one really thinks it's anything but. And it's an insulting charade to everyone who doesn't celebrate the Birth of the Savior.

The folks in charge should either get some balls about the tree, or don't put it up.

Are they going to put up a "Holiday Menorah" as well?

The choice is to be politically correct or not. Be politically correct and keep your religion to yourselves. Or shove our faces in it, and have the stones to tell us it's too d*mn bad. This putting up a Christmas tree and calling it something else doesn't fool anyone. Except maybe the folks who thought up the idea.

Sheesh.

"Barrack-style charm and grace"

Is that army chatter?

barrack
1 : a building or set of buildings used especially for lodging soldiers in garrison

2 a : a structure resembling a shed or barn that provides temporary housing
b : housing characterized by extreme plainness or dreary uniformity —usually used in plural in all senses

As long as my tax dollars aren't paying for the xmas tree, I don't care. It isn't like there are 1000s of other reminders of the holiday shoved down our collective throats.

"the Birth of the Savior."

shouldn't that read:
the Birth of MY Savior
or

the Birth of THE CHRISTIAN Savior

'cause he sure isn't everyone's savior

People should be free to celebrate the holiday, Christmas or what ever event they choose, I am just glad of anything done in the name of religion that is actually peaceful.

Whatever you celebrate....Peace would be good.

It is a Christmas Tree, just like the Professor says. It is a symbol for the Christian Holiday known as Christmas, celebrating the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ. So, it belongs in every public place in the Christian Nation known as the United States of America.

(Token menorahs, for Americans of Jewish heritage, are occasionally acceptable alongside the tree in public places, usually with the provision that the menorah is smaller than the tree.)

Oh please. The public Christmas trees are up for a couple of weeks out of 52 (i.e., Rock Center). What's the big deal? No, the Christians aren't collectively taking over America. No one is trying to convert you. Why is this always a problem every year?

....of course, the real question is, now that we have a Moslem president, will there still be a Christmas tree on the White House lawn?

If it's on PUBLIC LAND it does NOT belong there.

Mrs. Martta, I don't know which post you are responding to.

I like Christmas trees, I enjoy Christmas, and I am certain no one is trying to convert me. But I am posting an opinion that most Americans share and take very seriously.

A fundamentalist Christian friend of mine, had he said the exact words I posted, would be speaking completely within his beliefs.

Eid mubarak!

Rockefeller Center is NOT public land. It is privately owned.

Mrs. Martta, if it's not a big deal, why complain about the tree when it's called a Holiday Tree as opposed to a Christmas Tree?

Has no one ever seen A Charlie Brown Christmas and learned the difference between Christians celebrating the birth of Christ and the commercial celebration of commerce exploitatively also called Christmas (or X-mas)? I have known Jews and Hindus who celebrated Christmas in the commercialized Santa & tree & gift giving sense, but they aren't celebrating the birth of Christ.

Meanwhile, if you are Jewish and someone says "Merry Christmas" to you the proper response is "Thank you," not "I'm Jewish!" If you're Christian and someone says "Happy Hanukkah" to you the proper response is "Thank you," not "Oh, I'm not Jewish." People are just wishing you well in their own way. It's a nice sentiment. People don't often take the time to express nice sentiments to each other so appreciate them in the spirit in which they are meant and chill the **** out! I single these two faiths out because they are the only ones I ever really hear battling this **** out.

Now, after "Thank you," you may also add your "Merry" or "Happy" sentiment in return, but don't do it in a oneupmanship way or you are a superior acting tool. Just be sincere. And neither of you apologize when you realize the person is of another faith. There is nothing be be embarrassed about. Just move on.

For example:
"Merry Christmas."
"Thank you, and Happy Hanukkah to you."
"Thank you."

Anyone using the word Christmaka should spay or neuter themselves immediately.

I am glad I was here to resolve this conflict. As an Atheist I can only wish you all Happy Holidays, you quarrelsome theists you!

Greypoupon, did anyone actually complain about being told Merry Christmas? No, they didn't. So why are you so mad?

oh look, a pretty Christmas tree. This is the time of the year when my lord Santa comes and brings me gifts. Kinda like Easter when the bunny brings me stale peeps.

me like smugness. me like pomposity. me like baristanet. an sara palling too.

where am baristerville an why profwilliam name his weiner little prof?

Why do you think the word "Christmaka" was invented or that there is a perceived "War on Christmas?"

So FoxNews would have fodder for stories every holiday season?

Sigh. The war on Christmas story is so tiresome. Are people's faith so fragile that the meaning of the holiday is ruined because a clerk at Target says, "Happy Holidays!" Do all the people who cry and bemoan that Christ is being taken out of Christmas even know the origin of the X in Xmas? Celebrate the reason for the season with your family and in your church--why ruin the sacredness of Christmas by being angry about this petty BS.

But, that being said, c'mon, this is a Christmas Tree on Church St, not a Holiday Tree! What other holiday could it possibly symbolize? Hanukkah? Show me a Jew who thinks the tree is a Hanukkah Bush. There is no nativity scene there--it's a rather innocuous representation of Christmas. I think there are very few Jewish people who would be offended by calling it a Christmas tree. I have never heard any of my Jewish friends say, "I love to drive around and look at all the pretty holiday lights on people's houses."

Silly, it's just so silly all of this.

Dare I bring up that long before Christianity grew to dominate Europe the Pagans decorated evergreens and celebrated the passing of the solstice?

Holding the holiday on the first day of the year on which the sun shines longer than on the day before it predates any feast celebrating the birth of Christ (who was born in the spring, according to accounts in the gospels.)

So why get bent out of shape over a tree when it harbors no religious significance?

Oh, and let's not even mention how Hanukkah is among the very least significant holidays of the Jewish calendar. Its prominence in our current culture is due solely to falling near the time of the year that Christians celebrate Christmas.

I think that a Sukkah should be built and decorated on ALL public land that currently holds a Christmas/Holiday tree.

Only then will Ms Marrta be spared the ignominy of calling her Christmas tree a Holiday tree and asking that the Jews erect a Menorah to celebrate their lesser holiday,

Voice: You are really a sanctimonious twit, aren't you?

I have no problem with Jews and Muslims marking their respective holidays, either, on public land or wherever, should they choose. It's only for a week or so, people. Chill out.

No you just want CHRISTIAN symbols to be paid for by the rest of us.

"It's only a week. I expect the government to support my religious beliefs" says Martta.

is anyone else as annoyed as me by people calling Thanksgiving "Turkey Day"? Is there some obscure PC reason that they use this on radio and television? I think it truly demeans the day.

As for "Christmaka" This is the first I've heard that, and hopefully, it will be the last.

My favorite Christmas Tree is on Broad Street, NYC, in front of the NYSE. On Christmas morning, if you get there very early, you can find fantastic gifts left by Santa Clause for anyone who happens by. Last year I picked up a platinum bracelet for my wife and a Mesa Boogie guitar amplifier. There were dozens of people frantically grabbing boxes, shrieking with delight at their good fortune. Someone drove off in a brand new Escalade. It was phenomenal.

I always saw the tree for what it was; pagan. You know most of the 'Christmas' traditions are really adopted from paganism and other such things. That's how early Christians got pagans to convert.

As a non-Christian who grew up in a surrounding sea of Catholicism (I thought all Christians were Catholics until I went to college) I greatly appreciate the increased attempts at neutralizing the monopolistic presence of Christianity in recent years. And, yes, I do take offense when someone wishes me a Merry Xmas or Happy Easter. I would never think to wish L'Shana Tova (Happy Jewish New Year) to just anyone. It's the automatic presumption by the "well wisher" that everyone is just like him/her that I find so galling. I'm no fan of overly cautious political correctness but in this instance I can't help being ruled by my own personal experiences.

If I don't know someone's religious persuasion, I wish them a Happy Holiday. The major holidays, which have nothing to do with one another just happen to fall around the same time.

But again, I don't see how having a Christmas tree or a Hanukah menorah in the town square shakes your own personal faith--or lack thereof. If you are secure with your own personal belief system, this should not be an issue.

As for the tax issue, I--and many others--pay taxes for a whole laundry list of things I A) don't agree with, B) don't like, or C) don't think should be federally funded. That's the price you pay for living in a society such as ours.

monongahela,

I am with you on Turkey Day.

My brother said it once to me and I said, what?

He said, Happy Turkey Day...

I thought about it and (as most know) realized I couldn't keep my big, fat mouth shut and simply replied: "It's Thanksgiving."

As for the War on Christmas, or as we crazy, Christian Conservatives say, WOC. For me it's demeaning to Christmas, and has the smell of "us too" about it.

Growing up in a multi-racial/ethnic town, I thought everyone had off for Yom Kippur and Passover. Likewise, when kids left school early for Catechism, I never once said-- he what about us? We need to have our holiday honored too.

Why? Because I knew my peoples celebrated Christmas. So my Jewish friends got theirs, we Christians go ours.

Now it seems ours has to include EVERYONE, with no mention OURS.

So put up a Suka, or any other religious structure the community wishes--- that's fine and goes with my view of the Constitution as putting up a religious symbol is FAR from establishing a religion and works to prohibit the free exercise of it. Again, MY view.

Finally, while I don't agree with doyouhaveanygreypoupon on most things, s/he offers a wonderful argument and description of a respectful response to someone offering a specific "holiday" greeting.

Christians walking around wishing everyone 'Merry Christmas' is like me walking around on my birthday saying 'Happy Birthday' to everyone. It's just dumb.

It's really funny how a simple 'Holiday Tree' will get Christians bent out of shape. Do they not see the million other Christmas-related ornaments, decorations, sales, products, etc. that we are bombarded with every December? Some "war"!

It's kind of depressing to see so many folks battling it out above, and about a season at least theoretically devoted to peace. (Even as I'd love now to know who fussyhostess is, so that I could so easily roil her spleen by wishing her the merriest if Christmases. Perhaps too, I'd also wish Spiro T. a happy Eid, during which Muslim fanatics would so love to drive Jews back into the sea by way of celebration.)

But I would like to point out that the story that "pagans" decorated with greenery before the accession of Christianity is somewhat dubious. The pretty well documented life of St, Boniface, the "apostle to the Germans", and of his "conquest" of the Germanic pagan Irmenseul tree worship ritual, indicates that he told his newfound followers to bring greens into their homes as a way of announcing his God's triumph over pagan traditions. Many historians accept Boniface's urging as the real origin of the "boughs of holly" bit.

Also, no one has any real gauge of the importance, if indeed any, truly ancient peoples ascribed to the solstice. The archaeological evidence determined from megalithic sites, for example (as in the work of A. Thom, Fred Hoyle and many others) instead suggests that Neolithic folk really cared most about lunar cycles and eclipses, as would befit an archaeological society. Certainly, too, Wiccan claims that their historical "predecessors" celebrated the solstices as religious holidays are pure bunk.

In my old ethnically and religiously diverse town (a synagogue shuttered when I was about 10 has since been a Masonic temple, a Russian Orthodox church and then a Greek Orthodox one, then an Abyssinian Amharic church and lately a Coptic Christian one), prof, we used to parade by the public schools yelling "Suckers got school today!" on the feasts of St. Joseph, St. Francis, St. Benedict and the Ascension. The public school kids would return the favor by throwing rocks through our parochial school windows and calling us "mackerel snappers" during the days their schools were closed for teachers' conventions. And the Papist ones never, ever got let out early for religious instruction, which was instead given them on Wednesday evenings.

Life was so much more pleasantly inclusive back then.

Life was so much more pleasantly inclusive back then.

If there's one word I think of when I think of schooling in the 1960s and 1970s (I don't know how old you are, cathar), it's definitely 'inclusive.'

"Mackerel snappers"...definitely have to remember that one.

Someone mentioneed birthdays above..So let me ask this...If you wish someone else a happy birtjday, does that take anything away from your birtday?

So why is so threatening to wish someone a Merry Christmas, even if that's not your particular holiday?

And let me say I put my money where my mouth is..I always buy Hannukah cards for Jewish friends and acquaintances at this time of year. That's what they're celebrating, and it should be acknowledged.

And if your faith (or lack of) doesn't include either holiday, that's a choice that should be respected, as well.

But the thing on Church Street is a CHRISTMAS TREE and should be acknowledged as such..

Sorry for all the typos...I obviously need more coffee..

A holiday tree is wrong on two counts. It is not bad for the planet--a gigantic tree had to make the ultimate sacrifice just so we can stare at its corpse in the public square. And it is discriminatory to people who don't celebrate holidays. Instead of Christmas, Kwanzaa, Channukah and so forth, why not hold a once a year celebration of Every Day? It could be a day that is absolutely typical in every respect, down to New Jersey Transit delays, Decamp bus strikes and spikes in global average temperature. That would hold great meaning to us all.

I am terribly sorry, I meant to say that a tree IS bad for the planet. All these greenhouse gases have fogged my brain.

How about a "Hide the decline holiday?

Those emails were part of the spirited debate that is the scientific process. I happen to know personally, because some of them were mine. In my professional capacity, I am a climate expert with degrees in zoology and ecology, and I have served on presidential commission to examine climate change. Discretion forbids me from mentioning my current activities. Suffice it to say that I am in the middle of the climate movement. And I can tell you: the Earth is warming, the ice is melting, and the crisis is at hand. These emails should never have been released to the public. Scientists must present a unified front. Discipline must be maintained.

will you kiss me Mathilda?

Memo to Baristanet:

You know, you could save a lot of time, trouble, agida, Pepto, and vitriol by just reprinting last year's Christmas / Holiday / Channukah / Kwaanza / Whatever, Martha/ tree thread (or the one for 2007, 2006, or 2005...). Same old voices, same old bitterness (although Mathilda does bring a new breath of ... air ... to the fray).

Why can't we all just get along? (That is a rhetorical question.)

Kiss you? That is disgusting. You are a hideous troglodyte.

Yes! Someone else called ROC a troglodyte!

Yay! Mathilda's back!

What's all the fuss about the tree? It's the street that's really offensive...Church St? I object to township money being spent on street signs for Church St. Can't think of a new name though....

Summithiker - you just sparked a great idea! Let's auction off renaming streets starting with Church street to the highest bidders.

I agree. Church Street is offensive to all atheists. It should be changed to something that is useful in reminding us of our planetary obligations. Here are some suggestions:

Armadeggon Avenue
Climate Change Causeway
Stoicism Street
Deerslayer Drive

or Mathilda Circus.

Progressive Promenade

Grabowsky Glenn

To your point, Cathar, yes, there are Moslems who wish Jews to be driven into the sea, and those who don't. Just like there are Jews who want to drive Palestinians into Jordan, and those who don't. They can squabble all they want about religious symbols in public places, but that's small potatoes for each side.

Then there are your pals the Crusaders, (who you have oft defended on this website) who wanted to drive Jew and Moslem out of the Holy Land in equal measure. The last time I was at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the guide indicated how the streets were running with blood back in the day.

Being a across-the-board non-believer, I know of no one who wants to drive me into the sea, or anywhere else, except perhaps some religion yet to form. But I like Christmas trees.

Merry Christmas to you anyway, Cathar. May your days be merry and bright, and may all your Christmases be white.

To your point, Cathar, yes, there are Moslems who wish Jews to be driven into the sea, and those who don't. Just like there are Jews who want to drive Palestinians into Jordan, and those who don't. They can squabble all they want about religious symbols in public places, but that's small potatoes for each side.

This morning I got parking spaces in front of the Bikery, Bakery, and Bagelry.

Dropped of my new(used) Trek for a repair at the Bikery. Got my chain completely stuck between 2 chainrings on Sunday and had to use my most important tool - cellphone - to get a ride home. Then I picked up a Birthday Cake at the Bakery for my amazing wife who is turning 29 today. Finally I got 8 bagels at the Bagelry and some lox, scallion spread.

My cat just sneezed! Rusty loves to sit on my lap and watch me type nonsense. He's warm and vibrates very nicely.

Sure ROC, I've seen that map. And your point?

PS, ROC, the map is incomplete, in that it ignores those Moslem nations Indonesia, Bosnia and India. Then it would be really scary.

PS - why are Morocco and Algeria missing?

Spiro T., I have to note that ever since Christie became the incoming governor, you've become increasingly querulous and nasty in your posts. Buck up, my good man! It's only four more years.

As for the Crusaders, my increasingly outraged friend, what they were trying to do, basically, was to TAKE BACK lands stolen from Christendom around 1020-1040, when Christian inhabitants were "converted" by the sword. Almost all of what is now Syria, Lebanon and Israel was Christian before this; the residents simply fell prey to invaders. Try reading, say, Jonathan Riley-Smith's "Why The Crusades." Yes, it's published by Ignatius Press, which is (gasp!!!) a Jesuit-run outfit. But he's also tenured at Cambridge, which should cancel out the connection here to Catholicism.

PS. Spiro: No serious historian thinks the streets ran red with blood the day in 1098 or whatever when the Crusading armies retook Jerusalem. Was your guide at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher also a Cambridge-trained historian? Or just a shill for blood and guts stories by way of trumping up business? I don't know, you just seem to have lost it lately, man.

Jerseygurl, from the little that's known about the Druids, their rites had nothing to do with the solstice. That idea comes from the Roman-era, and fragmentary, "Coligny calendar," which is not necessarily Druid in origin. There's also much belief of late that the Saturnalia was never celebrated in near so "green" a fashion as contemporary proponents of paganism would have us believe. And the specific influence of St. Boniface stands before all other minor considerations.

Mrs. Martta123, am I in error? I seem to recall about 2 weeks ago you posted herein that you & yours joined the West Orange JCC ?

As a Jewish person, I enjoy seeing ChRISTmas Trees and I do not really care if they ARE on public property, as they beautify the land. I also enjoy the presence of Chanukkah Menorahs, that some towns put up. It shows freedom of religion is alive & well in America. It's especially nice when a town does put up a Menohorah ... it's like "going the extra mile..."
(hippos will fly, before bloomfield ever does....)
and it does not bother me when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas, either. I wish them a Happy Hanukkah right back!
Stop bickering about Religion. We are ALL our brother's keeper, as taught in BOTH religions!
God Bless ye all !!!!!!
Sandy

Sandy, the JCC is open to people of all faiths. It happens to be a top-notch community center.

Time for new glasses, Cathar, you continue to read me wrong. Merry Christmas.

"Oh please. The public Christmas trees are up for a couple of weeks out of 52... What's the big deal?"

Wow Mrs. Martta, I guess you'd tell a rape victim, that it was only a few minutes, what's the big deal.

Sandy, like you, I am a Jewish person. And I enjoy seeing Christmas decorations on private property: people's homes, businesses, etc.

Unlike you, I believe, as our founding fathers did, in the separation of church and state. Christmas decorations have no more business on public property than do the icons of any other religion. And renaming, traditional Christian symbols with generic names doesn't change their meaning at all. And, IMHO, it's somewhat insidious to do so. Like if they call it a holiday tree, we'll be too dumb to recognize it as a Christmas decoration.

At least Mrs. Martta's approach: F**k you. We don't care what you think. Get over it...is somewhat honest.

Christ died so that we could have Christmas trees.

"" It happens to be a top-notch community center.""

Oh, I know ! We might one day bump into one & other! (Inside, not in the parking lot!) :)

"Wow Mrs. Martta, I guess you'd tell a rape victim, that it was only a few minutes, what's the big deal."

Little bit of a leap there, ya think?

Santy Clause, a rapist? Say it ain't so!

Why can't Santa Christmas be like St Patrick's Day, where you don't have to be Irish to celebrate and you aren't likely to be offended if you are not Irish.

Well said, Do you have.... Still don't get why people get their panties in a twist over this. There are so many more important issues to get upset over. Now if they put up a slate of the 10 Commandments in the town square, or host readings of the Koran, OK, time to get the hackles up. But sometimes a tree is just a tree.

"But sometimes a tree is just a tree."

Yeah. When it's growing out of the lawn. When it's erected in a town square and decorated, and then religious songs are sung around it, then it's a religious symbol. Not "just a tree".

And when you're forced against your wishes to do something you don't want to do, something you find offensive by it's very nature, something that makes you feel violated...that's a kind of a rape, is it not? At least in the being forced into it?

You declare that reading the Koran would be something to get your hackles up. Or even displaying the 10 Commandments falls into that category. But the tree is ok? Is a Christmas Tree any less of a religious symbol? For Non-Christians it is the epitome of the difference between your religion and mine. It's no less religious than if it were a crucifix on display on Church Street.

Some religious symbols paid for by the town are ok, and some are not? You're either pregnant...or you're not. Either it's a Christmas decoration...or it's not. Calling it a Holiday Tree, claiming it's not a religious icon, then gathering around it and singing Christmas Carols, all the time insisting that it's not a religious event is more insidious and insulting, which is why I prefer the my original assessment of your approach to this.

Which in essence says: we're doing this and we don't care about you or what's right.

In order to be part of the community, I have to celebrate your religious holiday.

And for the record, DoYou, not everyone celebrates a holiday in March that began with a Saint. And the big parade in NYC isn't paid for with tax dollars. It's produced by a private organization. Which is why certain folks (whose lifestyle isn't in keeping with The Church) weren't allowed to march in it.

While you aren't literally burning a cross in my lawn...you are figuratively. And what's especially sad to me is that rather than aknowlege that there might be another way to look a this, you'd rather insist on your "rightness".

(The above got posted before I was done.)

I love Christmas. I celebrate it every year at the invitation of my Christian friends. But it's by choice and in their homes. It isn't forced on me, or paid for with my tax dollars.

I love looking at Christmas lights on folks' homes. I prefer not to see them on my town square.

and then religious songs are sung around it...

Frosty the Snowman
Winter Wonderland
Jingle Bell Rock
I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus

"In order to be part of the community, I have to celebrate your religious holiday."

Uh, no you don't.

Lemme make it really simple for you Mrs.M: There's supposed to be a separation of Church and State.

What part of a religious holiday celebrated on municipal property, and paid for by local taxes follows that separation?

Put it on a church lawn and let some Christian Coalition pay for it, and I'm all for it. ;-)

"here's supposed to be a separation of Church and State."

That's why it's called a "Holiday Tree" ....duh!

The township is not mandating that every citizen attend a religious ceremony surrounding said tree. No one is forcing you to do anything. If you don't like the tree, cover your eyes when you walk pass it. But why should some little kids be deprived of having their photo taken with Santa? Try explaining your views to them.

As I said before, there are many things for which I pay taxes--both federal and state--that I don't like to agree with. But that's part of living in a pluralistic society.

The town should not be using taxpayer money to put up that Hannukah bush.

"don't like OR agree with."

Interestingly "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the US Constitution. Jefferson coined the term in a letter describing the intent of the first amendment. But this term and concept are often mentioned as the intent of the founders. Even more interestingly, when President, Jefferson (the separator) authorized federal funds to Christianize the Native Americans.

If the tree was erected on Church St. to deliberately hurt an opposing religious sect--or a nonbeliever(s)--then it would be wrong. But it is there with no evil intent. It is a symbolism of Christmas, which is going to happen on Dec. 25th whether one celebrates it or not. If you don't like the tree, then it's easy--walk past it. There are bigger issues.

Frankly, I don't like what some of the protestors at the end of Church Street stand for, so I smile and refuse their literature...and keep going...But I would never say they don't have a right to be there.

p.s.

I also look forward to Michelle Obama lighting the National Holiday tree, helping the Rabbis light the Candelabrum of Winter on the Whitehouse lawn and heat the Soldering Iron of Loyalty (or whatever you do for Kwanzaa).

ROC, don't mention these things.

No one cares.

That there is a two prong attack-- establishment of a religion and the prohibition of the free exercise of religion.

As I wrote above: our Courts have created this dumb idea that our Constitution creates a Secular society where the Gov IS BARRED from ANY display of religion.

It does not.

Government cannot be seen as endorsing one religion over another, which is why I guess displaying the menorah and the Christmas tree is usually ok.

What I really find amusing is that every year, religious people feel the need to have their faith validated in the public square. Its not like Christmas trees are going to be rare around here the next couple of weeks.

I see it more as a festive thing than a religious thing. I feel the same way about those holiday lights and decorations that adorn the streetlamps. How come no one ever complains about that?

"What I really find amusing is that every year, religious people feel the need to have their faith validated in the public square."

I'll bet there are not many who tag their "faith" to display of a tree Mike. But couldn't you make the same "validation" point about Gay Marriage? All the same rights could be established in the guise of "civil union". The marriage issue is precisely about validation. That's fine with me, but why do you think validation is sometimes ok and sometimes not?

Why is Dec 25th a paid holiday for government employees, then too? Isn't that in celebration of a religious holiday?

it could be worse.

(talk about smashing stereotypes!)

Or this:

I happen to be pro-choice but I know people who are not, on religious grounds. If abortions are federally-funded, then aren't THEIR rights being violated because a portion of their taxes go to pay for abortions?

Mike91,

My problem is that my "faith" is bastardized in the Town Square with the HOLIDAY TREE!!!

I'd rather nothing than this---- SHHHHH..... We won't call it a Christmas tree because some will freak, but we'll call it a HOLIDAY TREE so we can put it up....

THIS is the problem.

If a community said, "because we are so diverse, we are not honoring ANY religion or symbols of religions," I'd have more respect.

Instead we get a HOLIDAY TREE......

I am as against abortion as the next guy, MM. But you argument doesn't really hold water. I'm not sure where you get the notion that our "rights" include our tax dollars not being spent on things we find religiously offensive. Quakers could then refuse military spending, Muslims and Jews could refuse USDA pork farm inspections, etc.

You've got a wacky view of how rights work.

The marriage issue is precisely about validation.

No, the argument that gays have against 'civil unions' is that separate but equal is usually the first, but rarely the second.

I do have a problem with those who wish to evoke the language of the Civil Rights Movement (without following how the movement worked, and of its success).

So Mike, Separate but Equal refers to (mostly) the schools under Jim Crow-- where White kids went to one, and Black kids to another.

They were demonstratively UNEQUAL.

Whereas, Civil Unions are identical to Marriage-- except for the name. If the "name" is off the table, they are demonstratively EQUAL.

So, the Separate but Equal charge is off base.

And because of this, the argument: Civil Unions are unequal and do not confer the same benefits of marriage, is moot.

Because it's just the name, not the rights/benefits.

(This only applies, of course, to those States, like NJ that have Civil Union laws.)

Seems to me it would have been better tactics to get rights to civil unions established before tackling gay marriage, rather than shooting for the moon.

"Frankly, I don't like what some of the protestors at the end of Church Street stand for, so I smile and refuse their literature...and keep going...But I would never say they don't have a right to be there."

The folks at the end of Church Street demonstrating are simply expressing their right of free speech. The town isn't picking up the tab, or endorsing their views over any others.

The same can not be said about the tree or it's lighting ceremony.

" But why should some little kids be deprived of having their photo taken with Santa? Try explaining your views to them."

And why should some other little kids have to wonder why the town is celebrating a holiday that they and their family, and many people they know don't believe in? Perhaps you can explain to my little kid why the town is celebrating Christmas but not Chanucka?

You remind me of the check out girl in Shop Rite who felt the need to wish my (then) four-year-old a Merry Christmas. When I quietly told her that we didn't celebrate Christmas she loudly announced: "Nonsense. Everyone celebrates Christmas."

And for the record, any kid can have his picture made with Santa at any number of malls, etc. There are relentless opportunities.

I can't help wondering if all the folks who are such defenders of the "tree" would argue so strongly if it weren't THEIR holiday. And they were told with such warmth, just close your eyes when you walk past it.

Again...just like telling a victim: "close your eyes and try to enjoy it."

Finally, it's nice to see someone who appears to have such a rest-of-the-year bias against kids argue so strongly on behalf of their right to a photo with Santa. ;-)

Listen, I've said over and over...I love what Christmas stands for. Where you and I differ is that I think the town has no business sponsoring a religious event, and you and some of my neighbors obviously do.

So let's just agree to disagree then and call it a day. May I wish you a Happy Thanksgiving or do you have some objection to that as well?

I am heading north to eat some good food with my family followed by a long walk on the cranberry bog next to my mom's house.
Happy Thanksgiving to all. (yes, I know the real story, still it's the spirit of the holiday we celebrate so let's leave the brutal reality behind). Enjoy the holiday.

dane seems to be a killjoy and a pain in the neck, but on the matter of principle, he or she is right. The town shouldn't be paying for the tree. Though I suspect that if you put it to a vote, the tree would win hands down.

Of course it could all be fixed if the town would just put up a gigantic menorah somewhere. And slaughtered 250,000 animals.

Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving.

Now, how 'bout a spirited discussion between the vegetarians and the non-vegetarians over turkey??

My dear jerseygurl, I send a thousand good wishes for thanksgiving day. That goes for you, too, Mrs. M., and you, dane, and even monty (lord have mercy on his soul), and all the rest of you knuckleheads.

Though it doesn't rank as high as good health, family and friends, I am thankful as well for Baristanet. Happy T-giving to Debbie, Liz, Tom, Fran, Kaitie, Kaity, Kady, Kadie and Caittee, and also to Bernadette, Georgette and all the other -ettes, and to anyone else there I've failed to name. Come tomorrow, rest assured that I shall be drinking to your health and prosperity.

"dane seems to be a killjoy and a pain in the neck, but on the matter of principle, he or she is right. The town shouldn't be paying for the tree. Though I suspect that if you put it to a vote, the tree would win hands down.

Of course it could all be fixed if the town would just put up a gigantic menorah somewhere. "

Sorry to be such a killjoy Walleroo. Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, it's about the principle. And, yeah, I bet if it were put to a vote...the tree would win. But not because it was right or wrong, but because there would be enough people who wouldn't care about the principle, and would care about as Martta implies, getting their kid's picture with Santa without having to traipse all the way to the mall.

And no, it would NOT be fixed with a giant menorah (chanuchia actually). That would be just as inappropriate.

And a happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it. Especially Mrs. M.