Montclair High, 2:50 p.m.

Thread No. 8 on the Montclair High School fights.

I haven't seen this much coverage on such a mind-numbing story since the balloon boy. What a waste of time. Come on folks there gotta be more intresting news out there.

Oh, Nellie. (sorry I've been dying to say that...)

It is a big deal. These "incidents" (along with my tax bill) are weighing strongly on whether I want to relocate before my kids make it to high school age.

I have been actively checking B-Net for more info. I'm glad they are providing it. That is what is great about Baristanet - getting the scoop.

Not for nothing...yesterday there were comments about the news on this being scant.

There go the property values!

Monty, I agree it's something that should have been covered, but it seems like some of the threads (like the one where the crossing guard and grandma were quoted) weren't that informative and could have been eliminated.

Yeah, it's pretty serious when a kid has no respect for police officers or no fear of reprisals from their own parents/guardians.

Man, people bitch when there is no coverage and now bitch when there is "too much" coverage.

Ok, barista's I officially feel sorry for you.

I might be creating a problem for fatty Hannity ( and the pious, wise and erudite TP2) at this point, but the partisan liberal STQ is disgusted by the idea of some slovenly punk assaulting a cop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnVdaTlQNMU

all was not well. there was still a police presence, and I saw someone run to a cheap looking red car, then speed away down park street. the policemen all ran to their cars and went off in chase. i assume it was someone trying to get away after doing something illegal.

Holy moley, what a difference six hours makes! The Baristas were all over this story this afternoon like leaves on a train track. Thank you!

The more I read about this week at MHS, the more disturbing I find it. Kids shouting down police officers, and assaulting them--it's incredible. And what were all these "adults" doing hanging around like bad breath? It gives me the creeps to think that my kids attend school at this place.

Thank you Baristanet for covering this, this is the kind of news that needs to be out there!!

See the problem is none of these kids went to Orientation. They're lost without it.

I can confidently pronounce only 3 of the 7 names.

This, of course, means nothing. Just an observation.

But then again, I have problems with many of my students- who mostly are European-American.

Maybe it's me....

TP2, you have not the first idea of my views regarding the ACLU. But I do know that your hatred of your fellow Americans will eat you up alive.

Well, they're all adults so let's hope they get the full charges as such. No slaps on the wrist this time. Let's set an example.

Hey Prof,

I bet you can't pronounce my grandparents extra long slovak name either.

Grow up why don't you!

Slovak?

And here I was thinking voice was Irish.

Where would I get such an idea?

MellonBrush, the armed forces don't want people convicted of serious crimes, only those who might have some youthful mishaps on their rap sheets. You really think that the sort of characters who assault cops are fit for the sort of regimented life the military offers? Or for actual combat?

If so, I doubt very much you yourself were ever in, say, the Army.

Today's military is selective and elite in many ways. Not so full of street scum as during the Nam years, when "the best and the brightest" got all those deferments (but would probably have been better later on for having served). To survive on the streets of Montclair is quite a bit different from survival even somewhere safely domestic like Fort Benning or Parris Island.

I'm grown AVoice.

What does that have to do with anything?

I probably couldn't pronounce your grandparents name. I just hope they'd understand and help me out.

I was making a simple observance, that you have taken it to mean something nefarious is on you, friend.

But really, I had a kid named Chakym once. I had NO IDEA where to even begin that one. I tried. Got it wrong and he was PISSED....

It was pronounced, SHA-KEEM-- go figure.

Here, we have "Alshaif Scriven."

I have no idea how to say that one.

And prof, I can pronounce the names of all those given as arrested above with confidence. They'rejust names, after all. Not sure what you were getting at with your comment above, but I'm reasonably sure that if it'd been delivered by a prominently Caucasian there'd be some understandable suspicion it sounds racialist.

Fortunately cathar, I am protected by both anonymity and melanin.

My point was a simple as it was-- that I could not pronounce the names.

If someone else said it, I would agree without putting them or the comment into a "racialist" category as I am loathe to do unless I have a very clear indication.

As for the pronunciation of these names here, good for you.

I struggle with unfamiliar names-- be them created or from another land.

That's just me. As I wrote above.

But perhaps like how we are not allowed to mention our President's middle name for fear of being called a "racialist," I was out of order to bring it up.

NEW RULE 2009: NEVER comment about a persons name, or even mention that you'd have trouble pronouncing it.

prof got it-- loud and clear...........................

For the record, to this day a buddy always reminds me that I could never say the name of the comic strip, "Funky Winkerbean" correctly.

So I'd make the same comment if Mr. Winkerbean were "processed" during the brawl at MHS.

My draft lottery # was, like, 353 or something. I was at a bar in West Orange when they held the draft lottery drawing. I called my mother around midnight to find out what my number was and when she told me 353 I was freaking ecstatic. A couple of friends with me that night weren't so luck and enlisted in the Navy.

If my number was low I would have gone to Canada. It was to hard to get a CO and I wouldn't have adjusted well to military life. I have a shy bladder... Oh well, I blew out my knee that same year so it was all moot anyway! :-)

Sheeeeeeit!

Relocate your kids all you want.

Schools are prisons that take little account of what kids need and want. They are places where crowd control and (adult) power take precedence over what matters to kids.

And kids know that. And for kids whose parents don't care, or who don't see that what's taught in school really relates to them, school is just another institution to attack, flaunt, or write off.

And this is true in places where overt fighting doesn't break out, too. You know: Those places where you're thinking about relocating. These are the places where privileged kids find plenty of other ways to act out their frustration or mimic the power-trippin' adults around them. They exclude others, use drugs, use subtle forms of bullying, feel depressed and frustrated, or simply buck up and "play the school game." These are the ones who have other outlets for their own needs for self-determination--maybe they take drum lessons or are good dancers or artists or soccer players and/or have folks who remind them constantly that they might someday create a place for themselves that revolves around their interests and goals. These are the lucky ones.

You want good schools, where kids feel safe and valued? Then start caring about what those schools are like for EVERYONE, whether disabled, college-bound, black, white, asian, smart, shy, outgoing, or quirky.

You really want to put your taxpayer dollars to work? Then demand schools that are relevant, interesting, FAIR, and democratic, where adults are leaders, not enforcers or guardians of power and privilege.

Good to see that, despire circumstances, [portion of comment deleted].

Beats avoice or the staggeringly stupid TP2 everytime.

The prof's comments on one of these threads (there have been so many!) is dead on. The issue isn't whether the principal is at fault for all fights that break out. Of course he isn't. But the school, and the district, had the responsibilty to communicate quickly and effectively with the public who do, after all, foot the bill. He/they did not do so.

And reading his statement is almost literally painful. One can imagine him with a Roget's trying manfully to avoid any troublesome wording -- the result is he comes across like Ari Fleisher on 'ludes.

And it is beyond comprehension how Alvarez, in the midst of all this, was not available. I'm no Rudy G. fan, but he was down there when no one was sure if another plane was coming in. Because that's what leadership is. Alvarez is not a leader, he's a bureaucrat. And right now, Montclair's schools need a leader.

I don't really know hat any of that means, rasp.

The "alpha dog" is always "around". Phones, computers, Blackberries make it impossible to claim that one was out of the loop. If one is, then that right there is a laedership failure.

Rank, etc. is bullsh*t when circumstances demand action. If you're the superintendent, or even a non-tenured principal, you step up and take charge. That is what will be remembered. Or, if you don't, THAT is what will be remembered.

Nobody was "dying" here -- this called for some institutional courage that was and is sorely lacking. Equating this with combat is silly.

Actually, prof, while you may indeed be anonymous, melanin won't absolve you here. Jesse Jackson has said plenty of dumb, racially tinged things (even one last week about why someone who won't vote for the health care bill in Congress can't possibly consider himself "black"), and he's a veritable fount of melanin.

I also think "racialist" is a fairly kind word, and you should be happy I didn't use something a bit harsher. Your remark about the names (and in a world where greatly respected jazz musicians are named Ahmad Jamal, Yusef Latif and Rashid Ali, yet!) was silly and showy. But also completely misbegotten.

For your penance, I suggest reading the Clifton votr registration listsome evening soon, since the town boasts of over 60 languages spoken there.

Ari Fleisher on 'ludes.

I violently disagree with almost everything you say, cro, but... well, when you're hot you're hot.

start caring about what those schools are like for EVERYONE... demand schools that are relevant, interesting, FAIR, and democratic, where adults are leaders, not enforcers or guardians of power and privilege.

Yah.

Good 'ol Clifton!! A rival of my dear Comets.

But still, if all the names were female, would that be okay to comment? What if Irish? Or Italian?

Names have always been fun for me and my friends. We fortunately, grew up in a multi-ethnic and multi-racial community where folks were free to have trouble with pronouncing AND make fun of others.

Parts of NJ used to be like that-- freely making fun of others-- its how some learned to get along and respect others.

I'm sorry if I offended Amir, Jhalil or Alshaif.

As I stated when I first wrote my comment, it was not my intention.

Well TP2, Meagn Fox staggers me, so I guess you're right.

But you're still an idiot, without even the charm that some idiots display from time to time.

Well I'm so flattered that you think I'm "somehat intelligent"!

I'll sleep soundly tonight, for sure!

I wish I was even more "intelligent" so that I could grasp your nuanced obseravtions.

But I'll have to dream on, aspiring to your level of expertise.

By golly, I'll get there some day!!!!

For the benefit of somewhat intelligent posters/readers, note that at the bottom of each post the posters handle (user name, for those who are somewhat intelligent) appears. In cases where replies are made to other posters specific posts, the handle of the other poster also appears in the following format - "handle x replied to comment by handle y". Making this observation may assist somewhat intelligent posters/readers here in grasping what appear to be "nuanced observations" or comments. Hope this helps those who are jubilant to be somewhat intelligent!

Anyone who doesn't fully appreciate how utterly outrageous this type of behavior is, is dangerously clueless. Lets not derail the debate with the irrelevant claims of race and privilege. Of course, there have been schoolyard fights for as long as there have been school yards, but adult drug dealers assaulting police officers on school property is a much larger problem.

People who choose to live in Montclair understand and appreciate that this is a vibrant and diverse community as opposed to a homogeneous exurb where everything is always supposedly serene and wonderful.

We simply cannot make excuses for not taking adequate steps to provide an appropriate educational environment for our precious children. The penalties for these infractions should be severe for the adults involved, and expulsion should be seriously considered for students who behave with utter disregard for any rules of conduct.

While some of the more high minded among us may find it crass, or less relevant, to mention the very real "dollars and cents" issues here, the fact is that we do not skimp in providing financial resources to our public schools. Our public schools are admired for the execution of their mission and the support that our community provides. In that context, incidents like this are an even bigger black eye, figuratively speaking, for our town.

How did Montclair become known as "diverse"? Are there indices that show how diverse our schools are? My children come from a "diverse" background & NEVER met one student who spoke their language. I have met white kids & black kids & one Japanese boy. That's it.

hs,

In America, when we say diverse, we mean anything other than White.

So in Montclair, with its large Black AND White population, we are diverse.

You can check the American Factfinder section of the US Census site, or the NJ School Report card for the numbers.

So while , we don't have a large Asian or Latino population as some communities, our "diversity" is based on race.

Diverse, as its commonly used, does not mean that a community has a many native speakers of every language, though many communities do.

Diverse can be a majority White Community that has a single minority group in excess of it percent of the general population. In Montclair, Black folks are about 40% or so compared with 12% of the US population.

That makes us diverse.

This is a much more spirited, even outright nasty, "debate" than was held about donating for Biscuit. Yet the Baristas have not stepped in to chide (or even to shut off comments altogether) in their best Miss Grundy-style.

I find this curious.

I don't think the appropriate question is HOW diverse?

It's really IF you are diverse.

With the mobile and transient population that the Country has, any number cannot hold forever-- the percentages will ebb and flow over the years.

But in America, while any "diversity" is important, most pay very close attention to the Black/White ratio. (So a community with its "ideal minority"-- say, Tenafly, doesn't get the same play as Montclair. Just look at CA as they try to take Asian off the minority list for its State U system.)

From the deleted portion, one can speculate as to whether the baristas know that Paulo Freire has been dead for 12 years, and that before his demise he was an extremely influential educational thinker.

I didn't enumerate the reasons WHY folks move, only that folks have the option TO move.

Obviously there are plenty or reasons folks leave.
Where'd 12% come from?

Using American Factfinder I found:

In 2000, Montclair was 32% Black
In 2006/8 (that last year with stats) it was 27%.

That's a 5% difference.

From that, where'd a 12% drop in Black kids in the Schools come from?

How can you tell what percent your "neighborhood" is?

Any answer is pure conjecture.

Real number are broken down by zip code only.

No one considers their neighborhood to be their entire zip code.

So I'll be like everyone else and make up number that suits my argument.

A link?

Anything?

whiteandblackandwhiteandblackandwhiteandblack ad nauseum.

There are lots of other types of diversity out there other than race:
economic (pretty wide range of wealth here),
cultural/social (quite a few 2 daddy and 2 mommy families in my kids classes and lots of funny smelling foreign foods in the lunch boxes),
religious (a shout out to our Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Islamic and Wiccan brothers out there),
political (well, if you consider Left, really far Left, and whack-job-socialist-Left a diverse selection)
etc., etc.

After growing up in a place where the WASPS thought that the local Catholics qualified as a minority group, Montclair seems pretty diverse. But then again lots of nearby places like Clifton and Patterson are quite diverse as well.

...and williams, check your math. A decrease in the black population from 32% to 27% is a 16% drop, not a 5% drop.

Such a shame you sully a great name in film history with you banal antics.

My math? Perhaps a clarification-- a 5 percentage point drop-- how's that? Sorry I made you ask someone to do the percents for ya....

Moreover, if you don't like the conversation don't read it. Obviously there are other types of diversity-- you can't think you added anything with that revelation, can you?

I discussed race because... No what? Scroll up and read why.

hs,

The 12% drop in black students comes with a TOTAL REDUCTION in the school population, White students dropped too.

So the 12% number, by itself seems surprising, in context does not. Which is why I wanted to see where you got the numbers from-- and thanks for the link!!

To be sure, statistics and numbers have a great way of being seen through whatever prism you use.

Likewise, the use of "block" info as your neighborhood, while fun, does not show what folks call or consider their neighborhood. For that, many would consider a larger area or one where a natural landmark or barrier exists.

I would say my census block, rather than my neighborhood, but you're right in using neighborhood as the census does.

Either way, most know the prof lives in a Palatial Mansion in UPPER Montclair-- you know how we roll up here!!!

I lived in Montclair for 26 years, and I now live in Verona. Trust me, Montclair is diverse. Verona is boring.

Boring but rated the best in NJ, right?

I bet there are many communities that would love to trade places.

"What are you looking at?"

The wrong table.

Sorry.

Knowing that there's a bubble traveling through the schools now, I believe one of the last 5 years saw the USA with more kids than ever in Kindergarden, I should have realized what I wrote was wrong.

Oh, well.

Still, I'm not sure what the numbers means (though I'm scared to quote that chart since I, obviously can't read it....), because it seems the Hispanic population has grown, so...

I wonder if during the last housing bubble in the 80's, the town saw a decrease in Black students?

williams, your math is wrong. Reread the thread above. You argued a 5% percentage drop in blacks compared to someone else's number of a 12% drop. A reduction from 32% to 27% of the entire population is a 16% drop in the number of blacks. Period. And the reduction in the black population was exactly the point that you were debating.

Don't be overly sensitive on the point.

the prof is known as being overly sensitive.....

No.

the prof has always and will always admit to a mistake. No biggie there. I've never had a problem with that.

I wrote "%" when I should have put "point."

But I'm glad your math is so great that you can help out.

Perhaps you can get a job here as the Chief "numbers checker."

That still doesn't change the fact that you, Spicoli have sullied a great name in film history with you banal antics.

Montclair Public Schools
Office of the Superintendent

22 Valley Road ~ Montclair, New Jersey 07042
www.montclair.k12.nj.us

Frank R. Alvarez, Ed.D.
Superintendent of Schools

November 23, 2009

Dear Parents, Guardians, and Caregivers:

The purpose of this letter is to inform you of recent incidents at Montclair High School. Although you may not have a child at the high school, it is important that you understand that these matters are of serious concern to the district and that appropriate measures are being taken.

Last week there were two major altercations involving several Montclair High School students as well as non-resident students. As a result, eight Montclair High School students and four non-resident students were arrested by the Montclair Police Department. All Montclair High School students who were involved in the altercations have been identified and suspended. Further disposition of the matter relative to either expulsion or alternative placement will be forthcoming pending due process proceedings pursuant to Montclair Board of Education policy.

Student safety is always a top priority. A safe and orderly environment is foremost in establishing a productive learning community. Please be assured that we are doing everything possible to achieve this goal.

Sincerely,

Frank Alvarez

Superintendent