UPDATE: The crowd has pretty much dispersed since Montclair mayor Jerry Fried, who just happened to be driving by, spoke to the crowd. He congratulated students on their protest, but asked them to return to class. “You all know it’s a school day,” he said. Fried urged students to continue fighting by writing letters to legislators and, in an interview afterwards, had only positive things to say about the protest.
The crowd of protestors keeps growing outside Montclair High School. Correspondent Kristie Cattafi estimates that about 150 students are taking part. They’re shouting “no more budget cuts,” holding signs attached to hockey sticks and imploring passing cars to honk. One trumpeter played the Star-Spangled Banner, and the campaign organizer stood on a rock and told protestors, “May 1, we’re going to go to Trenton.”
Cattafi reports that about three Montclair police cars are on the scene, and that officers are mostly trying to keep the kids out of the street.
The creator of the Facebook group, Daniel Kruse said that he was going back to class around 11 a.m. “We’ve done what we needed to do,” he said. “To stay out any longer would defeat the purpose.”
The senior was spreading the word about a march happening in Trenton about the budget cuts on May 1 at 1 p.m. as he was making his way back across the street to the high school.
However, Junior Kamilah Soriano is planning to protest outside all day. “We don’t even have any history books and now they’re talking about taking away foreign language classes,” she said.
I see this as a good thing.. Parents (grandparents?) from the 60′s: UNITE and be proud that your offspring are not sheep after all!
A student protest involving MONEY. How interesting. Prior generations protested things like civil rights and the war.
The kids went back to class when the found out Urban Outfitters doesn’t open until noon.
Why don’t they protest the unions, outrageous pensions & corruption among union bosses? Now that’s something to protest. Either that or get side jobs to pay for taxes which would pay for schools
Whether you’re in favor of the students’ position or not, they are speaking up about something that matters to them. That’s democracy.
I don’t see how making the unsustainable benefits and pension sustainable will hurt the quality of education our children will receive. If anything, it should free up some budget space to make purchases that could truly benefit the children, such as new books and computers. When I hear that teachers are buying their own supplies, it breaks my heart. Then I remember that they will have free lifetime healthcare for them and their spouses, not to mention an overly generous and unsustainable pension that would be the envy of 99% in the private sector.
… be proud that your offspring are not sheep after all!
To the contrary, I think this just proves how sheepish they are. It’s the teachers union that’s the shepherd… Not the government.
If they really wanted to buck the system, the chants should have gone more like:
“Save our (program name here): Eliminate Waste!”
“What do we want? Less redundancy in administration! When do we want it? Now!”
“Support our future: Get a 401(k)!”
And if it really was “starting to look like the 60s,” they would have taken the principal hostage.
@ Nick Danger: Seriously. of all the things to get students to protest in the last 8 years THIS is what they pick? I agree it is democracy at work, but it is also lame.
It’s so easy to spend someone else’s money.
or lives, in the case of war.
Facebook organizer Michelle Lauto, who graduated last year from Old Tappan High School in Bergen County and is now a student at Pace University in New York, said she wanted to join the cause because her mother is a teacher and her sister is a school secretary.
I wonder if any of the protesting students know what a “Tax Sale Certificate” is and how many (thousands) Montclair has sold to pay their teacher’s salaries.
Do any of our students have a sign that says “Take homes from the people to pay our teachers!”
Yeah, whatever happened to the war?
These kids sincerely support their teachers, who must be pretty good to get their support. I read a list of salaries to my daughter, who’d been working for three years for not-enough-to-live-on in the non profit sector, of her high school teachers. The salaries were not insubstantial: $80K, $79K, $95K. She responded: “She’s worth it, he’s worth it, she’s worth it” and so on. I couldn’t argue with her: a teacher who can instill a lifelong learning process in a kid is worth real money. I know she doesn’t grasp the long term fallout of unsustainable benefit packages, although she does understand the property tax burden.
I don’t think the students have been brainwashed by their teachers. I think they really do support them. They’ll learn about the hidden costs soon enough. I think their demonstration is a good thing, even if I believe the issue is more complicated than supporting schools and teachers.
So did your daughter say “He/she’s not worth it” for any of the teachers? Such a lucky student to have all good teachers.
It’s not about money it’s about education. Imagine, teenagers who actually want to be in school and learn more, or at least not learn less. And they are getting criticized for not protesting something else. Sheesh!
Uh, “wanting to be in school” did not seem to be the focus of the protest, as participation meant not being in school.
How about some Friday and Saturday night protests? That would show true zeal in lobbying to increase their parents’ taxes!
Anyway, at least their signs were about 1,000% better than the “WTF?” protest at MSU.
The cynical attitude and disrespect for teachers and public education displayed here is wearing on me. As a neighbor of the HS, I drove by (and honked) several times today. The kids are peaceful and organized. They are taking a stand (and a risk) for something important to them AND for younger students in this town and across the state. I assume none of you are the parent or the teacher of a teenager…you can’t brainwash them to do anything. Bravo to the kids.
Yes, it is a lot like the 60s and not in a good way. Too many Archie Bunkers and Dick Nixons on Baristanet. Wake up–you’ve fallen into the trap set up for you by Chris Christie. Teachers *already* feel disrespected–the mindsets on display here will only drive the best out of the profession instead of drawing more quality educators to the ranks. Not a way to support public education.
Teachers get pretty good benefits, yeah, but that’s been part of the deal–take on a difficult job with low pay, but reap some benefits. Should we pay teachers less? Offer them less benefits? Um, what will that do to the quality of our schools and our educators? The answer’s not so easy, huh?
Too many people are totally uninformed about public education (and mistakenly think they are simply because they know the town budget). How many of you have been in a public school classroom lately? How many serve on a school board or participate in the PTA? Get involved and then talk to me. The solution doesn’t come in a sound byte from FOX News.
And if you’re concerned about your bottom dollar? Property values in NJ are tied to the reputation of the town’s public school system (why else would anyone choose to live in Millburn? Ha,ha). This is what drove all the NYers to Montclair in the 1st place and will likely be what drives them away.
It’s a short-sighted society that does not invest in future generations. Shame on you for supporting it.
sscragg,
I support (and love one in particular) teachers. But your picture of them as low paid is off base. They are not. Many of the professional educators here have Master’s Degrees plus further, AND years experience- which matters!!- and should not be seen as some poor, downtrodden dollar per-hour waged worker.
With that though, comes a need for a community (and State) to look at what it can afford. With property taxes as high as they are, and education taking such a large bite– something must be done.
This equation is not that hard to understand, if every program and teacher is kept, AND we continue to pay FULL health benefits, our taxes WILL go up.
And at some point, it is unsustainable (where many feel we are).
I’ll avoid the “worth it” argument as I find it reductive and unnecessary.
To me, the old model of the Union asking for the world and the Town giving it to them (this is true for most public service employees) is over. Now, folks have to work together.
Instead, sadly, we get Christie making big (and promised) cuts, and Union leaders like the jerk in Bergen County wishing him death.
Christie will win this battle because the Union often embarrasses themselves by seeming out of touch (and, of course, the power of the NJ Governorship).
I’m sure those in school trying to study appreciated you circling and honking your horn.
I don’t believe people are misinformed. I believe they more aware then ever and thats why they are asking for a little ‘give back”. Yearly raises, medical, eye, dental benefits, summers off with a pension in a time when some these people are making 6 figures is a thing of the past. I don’t think people are treating teachers unfairly, just shocked how out of touch and unflexible their union is.
The well is dry.
Sorry, inflexible.
sscragg: Foreclosures are at an all time high. The cost of owning a home is the Mortgage and Property tax (and insurance, maintenance, sewer, water, etc.). For many, the property taxes are higher than the mortgage and property taxes go higher every year. Whether you like it or not, everytime property taxes are raised, more people are forced into foreclosure. And Montclair will sell a Tax Sale Certificate on your home if you fail to pay your taxes. These Tax Sale Certificates are foreclosed upon. People are losing their homes to pay the salaries of teachers. There are costs and they have consequences.
Sscragg,
So what you are saying is that unsustainable benefits are the key to maintaining high property values? Sorry, but this is just not how it works. What don’t you understand about the state losing over 20% of their tax revenues? Where should the money come from? The high property taxes are already creating a mass emigration of wealth. Want to know what really kills property values? Exorbitant property taxes. Keep on promising to pay out more than you take in and I’m fairly certain that even more wealth will leave. The wealth that pays a much larger share of taxes than the middle and lower classes (arguably not enough).
Nobody here has an issue with the teachers (I really hope). The problem is with their union who has repeatedly traded their soul to the assembly for their continued vote. In return, the assembly has given the union benefits that are impossible to sustain. It wasn’t that big of a deal when revenues were increasing. Now that the revenues are decreasing, the day of reckoning is much closer than we ever imagined possible.
There are plenty of unemployed professionals who would gladly take the positions of these teachers with the outsized benefits and comparable salaries. I certainly would and I would pay 5% into my lifetime healthcare account and much more into my guaranteed return 7.5% a year pension.
It appears to me that these teachers are in it for themselves and not so much for the children. If they were in it for the children, they would make some real give backs to their benefits so that large class sizes could be avoided and so their neighbors could afford to stay in town. many who have endured serious cuts to their salaries and benefits, not this piddly 1.5% into health care and a one year salary freeze that doesn’t even take into account longevity pay. Instead, their position is to screw the last hired, maintain their unsustainable benefits and screw the children with larger class sizes. It’s survival of the fittest (or the most tenured) For the children my butt. It really should come as no surprise that the public is upset with their union’s position. $130,000,000 in dues per year and the best they can come up with is ‘It’s for the children and to maintain your property values.’
Money does not equate to quality. I’m so sick of this argument.
The way, the only way, this protest truly recalls the 60′s to me is that yet again protesting students apparently had no real idea of the issue at hand nor of what is really at stake (especially with regard to their parents’ finances). Whatever their teachers did or did not tell them, too.
The kids aren’t always alright, in other words.
I recently ran into a cousin with whom I grew up. We were born two months apart. After college, he went to teach in Jersey City because they were offering draft exemptions for inner city teachers at that time. I went into military service and entered the corporate world after my discharge. I am now 64 years old, saved throughout my career and can hopefully retire next year if there isn’t another serious downturn in the economy.
My cousin mentioned golfing and fishing a lot so I asked if he retired. His response was that he retired 6 years ago.
I realize that teachers don’t have it easy; ny sister and mother both taught. However, during my career I worked in IT and pulled many all nighters and all weekenders putting in new systems. I was called back from a Cape Cod vacation for an emergency system fix. When my children were young, I had to travel often and missed out on some of their events.
I’m not sure my cousin’s difficulties in the teaching field warrant him being able to retire at 58 while I have to work until at least 65.
Stuw6 said:
(1) “Nobody here has an issue with the teachers (I really hope).”
…then…
(2) “It appears to me that these teachers are in it for themselves and not so much for the children.”
Does. Not. Compute.
sscragg,
take on a difficult job with low pay…
The $80K, $79K, $95K mentioned above are low pay for an individual? Upwards of $190k if the teacher’s spouse is also a teacher at the same pay level?
Even if my pay were comparable to that (it’s not), my take home would be much less than a teacher’s because a) I’ve got to pay into my own health insurance and b) When I retire in another 30 – 40 years I’ll only be drawing from my 401(k) and hopefully Social Security. No pension for me.
Property values in NJ are tied to the reputation of the town’s public school system…
The property tax burden in this town starts at $10,000 per house and quickly goes up.
Of that $10,000: 60 percent is spent on the schools. How much of that 60 percent is spent on pensions, free health care, etc?
You say that property value is tied to education? This might (or might not) be true.
But, you know what is true?
Families making ~$60,000 a year (which is 3x higher than the “poverty level” if you didn’t know) simply cannot afford to own a house in this town because the tax burden is higher than most would be willing/able to pay in rent.
This leads to most “real” middle class residents of this town having to rent in order to send their kids to our excellent schools, which leads to less property tax generated by the parents of those kids, which leads to higher taxes on single-family homes, making them less affordable to the middle class… Wash, rinse, repeat.
Indirectly, the “education system” in this town is the primary reason why my wife and I are not looking to buy in town. Fortunately (for the town), we’ve got another five years to look in other towns before our kid adds to the tax burden scenario I described above.
Yes everyone works hard and guess what? The middle class is getting screwed. I’m feeling it too. So…blame…the…teachers? Oh, that makes perfect sense!
These teachers who have advanced degrees worked a lifetime to garner their salaries–they certainly weren’t hired at that rate. What’s the starting salary in town? Would you raise your family on that pay?
The solution is not to fall into the trap. Chris Christie wants the scapegoat to be teachers & education. Please redirect your anger to the people who really caused the issues of the middle-class squeeze and move on. Teachers are NOT to blame.
Sscragg,
“Does. Not. Compute.”
What doesn’t compute is that the teachers union is using the ‘for the children’ as their justification for maintaining unsustainable benefits when in actuality it is hurting the children.
But keep drinking the NJEA Kool Aid. NJ schools have achieved the number one position nationally in only one area. Cost per pupil.
sscragg,
This is how I know you are a shill…..
“The solution is not to fall into the trap. Chris Christie wants the scapegoat to be teachers & education. Please redirect your anger to the people who really caused the issues of the middle-class squeeze and move on. Teachers are NOT to blame.”
Three times I have posted this, and I will continue until people understand:
CUTS WERE MADE ACROSS THE BOARD…..
Text Right from his Budget Speech
“Every single department of state government will be reduced:
Agriculture, down 24%;
Banking, down 12%;
Children and families, down 4%;
Community affairs, down 35%;
Corrections, down 7%;
Environmental protection, down 2%;
Education, down 8%;
Health and senior services, down 6%;
Human services, down 4%;
Labor, down 6%;
Law and public safety, down 7%;
Military affairs, down 2%;
The public advocate, down 25%.
State, transportation and treasury, down 11, 3, and 39%, respectively.
Every department of state government has been asked to tighten its belt.”
Tell me sscragg, how do you think the Unemployed feel when the Gov asks them to take a cut in benefits, or the Seniors who will pay more for prescription drugs, or the NJTransit Riders whose fare are going up(25%) in a couple of days. I could continue to talk about shared sacrifice but you wouldn’t understand that. Teachers are not some sacred untouchable “special interest” in the community.
I certainly don’t have an issue with teachers. I think most of them are great and I owe my SAT scores to some terrific ones! They have a tough job today, playing two roles: educator and disciplinarian. It’s not like the ’50s and ’60s where kids actually respected their teachers and didn’t sass back. Or when teachers actually got respect from the parents of the kids in their classrooms.
That being said, and as others have posted above, I blame the greedy unions for the mess we are in today. Of course the teachers are going to get sucked in by this situation, who wouldn’t? Seriously, if my job offered free health insurance, a pension (and not just a 401K), summers off, and a host of other bennies, I’d be hard pressed to leave. And, I wouldn’t want someone coming in to take it all away from me, either.
But here’s the reality: Times have changed, we are crisis mode where the economy is concerned. Property taxes are through the roof. Yes, we lead the nation, folks, with the highest property taxes (and probably the crappiest weather, but I digress). Not something of which I am proud.
And, as other posters have pointed out, very little of this moolah is going “towards the children.” If that were the case, we would see stellar scores and performances coming out of those districts that are receiving the largest slices of the pie. Sadly, we are not.
It’s time for a change and I commend Gov. Christie for at least trying.
Howard, in response to your previous post, they were all high school teachers, and after an elementary school education of, quite frankly, one burned-out-dried-up-biddy after another (all of whom I hope are retired) the high school teachers, who were the same age, seemed to be seasoned professionals, and consistently good. Deserving of their salaries, though, in my opinion, not the bennies. Because I and others just can no longer afford it.
Stuw6 said:
“Money does not equate to quality.”
In a capitalist society, in a working situation, it certainly does. This is the way we show value to workers. Better benefits, higher salaries, fringe, etc.
And should we expect the same results when we pay people less and disrespect them? You may not want to lie down in the lumpy bed you’re making…
sscragg:
Put all the expenses together in the State, County and Municipal budgets for the entire State of New Jersey and the largest expense (and it’s 3 fold larger than the next catagory: public safety) is public education. If we don’t control public education costs, the state is bankrupt. The education industry with its biggest expense being teachers, is to blame.
Sscragg, we cannot continue to give public employees benefits packages that enable them to retire at almost a full salary with full medical benefits at an early age. Public education is important, and we do need to continue to fund it, but having taxpayer dollars support early retirement and medical benefits for life starting is just not sustainable. People in the public sector should not be permitted to retire at 50 with full benefits.
“Burned-up-dried-out biddy” is a really unfortunately sexist-sounding phrase, Kit Schackner. You really might wish to be more careful with your imprecations.
“And should we expect the same results when we pay people less and disrespect them?”
Who is disrespecting who? When my salary was cut 12% and my 401k was eliminated due to a drop in our company revenue, I didn’t ask the teachers to open their wallets to make up for my shortfall in income and benefits. I repeat, who is disrespecting who?
As for expecting the same results at lower pay, I am working twice as hard as I ever have. God forbid I lose my job, I really do not want to reenter the job hunt when real unemployment is around 20% and my property taxes are due to increase 8%.
Are you aware of how a budget works? Or are you a public sector worker who is accustomed to receiving 4% raises every year regardless of job performance?
Stuw6,
I own my own business and I manage budgets all the time for myself and others, thank you. I’m not a public sector worker, though I once was. Now sometimes when I lose a client or am kept waiting 90+ days for a check, I wonder if I can get my old job back, even if the pay was lousy.
Look, what happened to you sucks, but that’s the risk of working in the private sector where you are subject to the whims of employers. Teachers chose to work in the public sector under union protection.
I really think the anger against teachers is truly anger at the economy. It’s funny, but I guess during times like these, it seems like teachers have it good.
Be mad at your employer for giving you the big screw. Teachers aren’t the enemy.
sscrag,
You’re right that people are angry at the economy. But they’re also angry at teachers for not acknowledging the economy or how people in the private sector are hurting. Teachers in NJ are showing no awareness that its wrong to ask people who’ve lost jobs or taken paycuts to pony up more for teacher salaries and benefits. Having attended a number of BOE meetings at which teachers have spoken–and knowing many teachers personally–I get the sense they don’t understand that their money ultimately comes from their neighbors, the taxpayers. Every dollar taken from me to give to teachers is a dollar less for my family.
They don’t understand where the money to pay them comes from? I would hope they do, it’s not rocket science. Let me drop a bomb here: teachers pay taxes too!
What I believe Gov. Christie is trying to do is create a taxpayer vs. teachers divide in this state, and from the looks of this comment board, it’s working.
“Be mad at your employer for giving you the big screw.”
And there lies the real issue. My company did what they had to do and what they should have done. The Unions also have something to do, but they are not willing to do it. Am I mad at teachers? Absolutely not. Am I pissed off at their union. Hell yes.
Let’s face it, no one wants to take a pay cut, but no one is getting screwed here. The revenues are down hence we really have two choices. Either teachers give back or there will be less teachers teaching our children. We can’t raise taxes to make up the shortfall for this will lead to a cycle of even higher taxes as the wealth leaves and there will be less of us remaining tio pay. Sure there might be a slight hit to quality. But I really doubt it. Workers don’t immediately reduce their productivity when a benefit is lost. Even if it was a promised benefit.
Yes public workers are protected by unions, but the teachers union strategy of protecting unsustainable benefits over job creation and maintenance is just plain wrong and short-sighted. It is also a public image nightmare, hence the public reaction.
You also wrote, “but that’s the risk of working in the private sector where you are subject to the whims of employers.” There’s that union mentality at work again. I lost 12% of my wage but the executives and highly-compensated workers lost 15%. I work for a pretty progressive mid-cap. Their decision resulted in less layoffs and a better chance for our success in the future. The teachers union could learn a thing or two from my employer. But they won’t.
Cathar: Being a burned-up-dried-out-biddy in my own profession, especially after this recession, I feel perfectly free to call it as I see it when others are the same. What’s sexist is that the only male classroom teacher she ever had throughout elementary school didn’t get his contract renewed after one year, and that elementary teachers are overwhelmingly female.
Unlike my ‘sisters’ who are teachers, I cannot retire after 33 years in business on a full pension with lifetime health benefits. Between the economy’s effect on my business and my property taxes, I’m looking forward to being able to afford living in a trailer park in a swamp.
Nitrusoxide,
was he trying to create a taxpayer vs. NJTransit Rider divide in the state when he slashed their budget?
was he trying to create a Unemployed person vs taxpayer divide in the state when he asked them for reduced benefits?
was he trying to create a Senior on state funded prescription drug plan vs. taxpayer divide when he slashed the budget for that too?
Keep trying, the argument gets stupider every time informed people read it!
I just want to be sure that I understand all of this correctly.
The leading voices in the “St. Ayn Rand get yours everybody makes their own deal and don’t bother me with anyone else” Choir now feel that “shared sacrifice” is the way to go.
So if someone made what looks like a bad deal now several years ago, and elected to go into the private sector, he/she may proceed to whine about how bad they have it versus the public sector employee. If he/she got a pay cut, so should that public worker. If his/her pension blew up, no one else should have one either.
Sounds like socialism to me.
Cro, you’re not addressing whether it’s sustainable. Do you think we can afford it in perpetuity?
Dear Mister Cathar, I am quite sure Ms. Schackner was, by association, including “fried old farts” with that description. I’m also sure most people have known one, and may have even endured one, in their lifetime. Thankfully my kids have only had the pleasure once so far, and she probably wasn’t necessarily ‘fried’ as much as ‘stuck in her ways’ and using a lesson plan developed at least 18 years ago.
I must add that our past couple years have been filled with phenomenal teachers, some of whom in particular I adore, and almost worship (you know who you are)!
What irritates me is when I hear that a teacher at a school tells their students that if “Ms. X at so-and-so school loses her job there, and she decides to come to this school, I will be out of work”. (Presumably because Ms. X has a certificate to teach at certain levels.) While I know this anyway as a parent, I don’t think it’s right for the teachers to be saying this to the kids. What is constructive about pitting teachers against each other!
The pensions were expected to blow up. They were designed to be unsustainable. I’ve been telling public workers for years that they better start saving outside of their pension. It’s the same situation with the lifetime medical benefits. As long as our government is planning on continuing to be a corporatocracy, health care costs will continue to increase. Evidently, it’s not even a partisan issue.
It’s really not about private sector vs. public sector. It’s about the unsustainable benefits promised public workers. If you can come up with a way to generate more taxes from the majority suffering from a declining wage, then I would gladly support the continuation of the current promised benefits as they exist today. This has nothing to do with so-called socialism.
No, I don’t think that the current system can continue in perpetuity. At least not unless and until the current way that we fund education in this country changes.
And it should.
What I find amusing is the wailing and gnashing of teeth from those who, in every other aspect of their lives, preach “individualism”, “you’re on your own”, “no handouts”. Of course, now that they’re on the shorter plank, its a different story.
And it has always been that way. Hypocrisy thrives now as always.
For the record, I do believe that public benefits need to be curtailed and a greater recognition of financial realities needs to take root. Silly me, I also believe that a contract is a legal document, and that a society has an obligation to honor the ones they make.
And I believe that REAL action on this issue will NEVER begin with “what about what I lost in pay/pension/benefits,” whinging.
It is reassuring to see all of the above posts from people who have a handle on fiscal responsibility. It is stupefying to see that their posts get so many negative responses. Stick to your guns. This is a debate between realists and utopian idealists that are weak on math skills. The idealists need to wake up and smell the coffee..”for the children.”
Cro, I think I agree with you even though I am guilty of complaining about my personal sorry lot in contrast to the generous bennies of public workers. How would you fund education?
No, many of the posts come from people who support this sentiment: “Every dollar taken from me to give to teachers is a dollar less for my family.” Is that illustrating a handle on fiscal responsibility? Or a bitter person who resents any profession that gets paid from public funds?
Tudlow:
Of course, it’s true that any dollar in taxes you take from me for any public function is a dollar less I have for my family or crack or whatever. My point is that the amount that needs to be taken in taxes to meet the commitments made to public employees by councils, freeholders, school boards and legislators can’t be paid without dramatic increases in taxes at every level on every person of every income. The issue of compensation for public employees: teachers, police, DEP guy, county park maintenance worker–isn’t going away. Small tax increases and surtaxes on the rich won’t solve this. Public sector pension and medical costs are exploding. This will end badly, for all of us. New Jersey is no different than Greece, just a few years earlier.
We all do it, Kit. Don’t be hard on yourself. There are plenty of folks here ready to crucify you at every turn.
The short answer to your question as to how I would fund education is that I’d look for something along the French model. It would be a national undertaking, with students “allotted” an agreed-upon amount for the type of education we all agree should be provided. Funding would come from a VAT or if you prefer a payroll tax. A national curriculum would be in place, with agreed upon standards.
When folks compare the US to other countries in terms of educational outcomes it is laughable. How are these international schools selected? Are vocational schools included? Low-income schools? Are children with disabilities counted? Language minority students? All regions of the country? They are here. The simple fact is that the more selective the sample, the higher the country’s score.
The US has the second highest income and wealth gaps when compared with other industrialized countries, and our system of funding is the most unequal. Should it surprise anyone that there are problems? Or are these problems all the fault of overpaid and greedy slackers who work 9 months and sit on their behinds all day?
There is a barely concealed hatred of public employees evident in the rhetoric I see, and in the vitriol coming from Trenton. I see it on this board as well. Its odd coming from posters who likely bleat “class warfare” whenever a new system of taxation oh sorry, “wealth redistribution” is discussed. There is also a Napa Valley of sour grapes from those who, 25 years ago, would not have taken a public sector job for love nor money.
I have very little patience for whining, and I’m seeing an awful lot of it lately
How much money did we pour into Wall St et al?
How much money are we pouring into two wars?
The students should follow the money to find out why there is a lack of it in their schools.
“A national curriculum would be in place, with agreed upon standards.”
Good luck with that one, getting the 50 states to agree on a national school curriculum. Intelligent design vs. evolution, sex ed. or no sex ed., alternative lifestyles or not, and the beat goes on.
You’re right, MM. It will likely never happen.
Though I don’t know of any school with an “alternate lifestyles” curriculum.
I just answered the question I was asked, though i know that the odds are against anything resembling that model ever taking root here.
But don’t forget that education is a STATE issue. Not a Federal issue as the Constitution is silent on education.
The Feds have no control over the funding of it. They can set standards and tie money to it- like with NCLB or, say a national speed limit and highway dollars. But the States are free to pass on it– and the money.
So the idea of a national standard violates the idea of local control over education. MM wrote a few great examples of why this is a good idea.
So PAZ, the bailouts and wars- national issues- are irrelevant to what happens to a States ability to fund its educational obligations.
NJ’s problem is that we over promised and failed to put money aside for pensions, AND expanded our NJ Gov to a level unseen, complete with amazing pay/benefit packages to the public employees (of which I’m a member).
THAT is why we are in the hole we are in.
It’s not too complicated.
(And if your answer is RAISE TAXES I say, look at California. It could very well be the first failed State in our Union.)
And that’s a shame, indeed, considering what recently occurred in Texas with their Social Studies curriculum. The ID versus evolution in a no-brainer, though. Any child that learns and accepts that ID is an alternative “theory” to evolution is at a huge disadvantage–it’s sad, really.
“Teachers get pretty good benefits, yeah, but that’s been part of the deal–take on a difficult job with low pay, but reap some benefits. Should we pay teachers less? Offer them less benefits? Um, what will that do to the quality of our schools and our educators? The answer’s not so easy, huh?”
Firstly, you are living in the last century
Secondly, For every teacher there are 20 unemployed highly educated people who would kill for a teaching job
Thirdly, an unemployed engineer of many years experience, worked his way into administration in a Jersey urban school. His big aha to me was that the teachers really hate the kids even while always bleating “for the kids.” I’ve experienced this myself.
Fourthly, 150 kids, at 2 hours of 6 hour days, of 180 days/year at 12000 dollars per year equates to a cost of 3299 tax dollars on the hoof for that demonstration.
As long as we have “progressives” like tluddite teaching “social justice” this crap will only continue.
NJ is bankrupt, and we have been for several years. The student protest are a cute sideshow…the bigger picture is absolutly sickening yet no one wants to look. We are caught up with 2% pay freezes while we still owe 49 billion to the state pension system. Are you kidding me? Wait for it, we havent seen anything yet. Greece and half of Europe are sliding off a cliff. California, Indiana, NY and NJ are in the same trouble. I’ll say it again, you haven’t seen anything yet.
You’re such a waste, whatsupwiththat. First, I’m studying to be a science teacher and there is a bit more of a focus on photosynthesis and evolution than “social justice.” What exactly are you qualified to teach? Social injustice and how to be a miserable prick? You certainly haven’t presented any evidence here that you are one of those highly educated people you speak of.
That felt good. Now buzz off, would ya?
Prof, take the blinders off and look for an alternative. Your hands & mind might be tied to the old standards but times could be changing and our money must come back from the feds for all the states to survive. Wake up Obama, power down the wars. But of course, nothing will change as long as we yammer about everything local.
Education is indeed a state issue. However, I was asked what I’d do if I were king for a day. I’d make it a federal responsibility. It COULD be done. It would require a constitutional change, but that’s been done.
But as I said, I don’t anticipate it. Americans love the illusion of “local control”.
Tudlow, don’t waste time engaging with whatsup. He is a raging cretin with not an idea in his head. I know the temptation is there, but he is really beneath you.
I mean, REALLY, REALLY beneath you.
Stupid headline. Really stupid headline. People are angry and moved to action, so don’t reduce it to some kind of lame reference to 40 years ago. Besides it’s nostalgia for something that largely didn’t exist.
The headline and Mayor Fried’s contribution pretty much sum up bourgeois-liberal Montclair.
Good for the kids though.
That blonde in the pic looks kinda hot.
Nothing gets folks more riled up (& sparks the most comments here)than a good protest!
I’m for it!
I’m against it!
Free speech!
Punish them!
“Though I don’t know of any school with an ‘alternate lifestyles’ curriculum.”
Not really a curriculum, Cro. But introducing books such as “Heather Has Two Mommies,” for example. That may fly in NY or NJ but I don’t think it would go over too big in Utah.
See that’s the thing. While a plan mught sound good on paper, executing it is another story. Yes, Americans like the “self-governance” thing. It’s part of our heritage, like it or not. Fifty states with 50 different ideas on how to run things.
We’re not like France, or any other country for that matter. We are unique and that is both a good and a bad thing.
I never got that “America is unique” thing, MM.
Who isn’t?
Anyway, when I talk about a curriculum I’m talking about an agreed-upon set of competencies and a common body of knowledge that we want, as Americans, our students to possess. I think that within that content could be room for individual states to address the “unique” (that word again) aspects that pertain to them — the fact that Texas was once an independent country, for example, or the impact of Asian immigration in California or European immigration on the east coast during the 19th and early 20th centuries.
But students would have an exposure to agreed-upon concepts in math, in science, social studies, etc. They’d be expected to be able to read critically. All of these things do not take away from local control, in my view. And they are all concepts that we all say that we want.
Accomodating different cultures and lifestyles is already in an issue in states like NY, NJ, CA, TX, etc. Not everyone is going to be happy, and they wouldn’t be under my model either. In France for example, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding the Muslim desire to segregate the sexes and to wear the hajib. In Britain, some have called for Sharia courts to administer justice to Muslims, and many African and West Indian citizens feel that their cultures are not respected. No system is perfect, and nothing will work for everyone. But I think that we can all agree that the system her should work better than it does.
Profwilliams said, “NJ’s problem is that we over promised and failed to put money aside for pensions, AND expanded our NJ Gov to a level unseen, complete with amazing pay/benefit packages to the public employees (of which I’m a member).”
That is really the issue. So many people are vilifying the union but rarely are people directing their anger at the public officials who were on the other side of the table from the unions when these contracts were negotiated. Where is the accountability among our public servants?
How can you go after the politicians? It’s always been their game to give the unions everything they ask for in exchange for their vote. Even if it means making promised that they can’t deliver on. Montclair overwhelmingly votes Democrat. These Democrats have been twice as bad as the Republican state leaders when it comes to selling their vote to the unions.
Sorry– I tie my view to that OLD STANDARD– the Constitution.
There will NEVER be a federal take over of the schools. NOT. A. CHANCE.
As I wrote earlier, just read Mrs. Martta’s post, she points out the reasons why in a simple, easy to understand way.
justacitizen, you got it: it takes two. The Unions- RIGHTLY- asked for the moon, the Gov. gave it to them. Why? One reason is because of the Union’s contributions to Dems (something I have disagreed with by my Union for years to no avail). So, who cares? If the State is dumb enough to give away all its money to the hard working Public Service Employees, God bless ‘em.
But now, the Unions worked so hard against Christie and guess what: he’s paying them back!!!
So while I wish this were really about an individual teacher and school, it is not. It’s about the Union making a dumb decision to ALWAYS throw its support to one side.
ON ANOTHER NOTE:
Did anyone else find it odd to hear Newark kids screaming about MORE money when they already average about 22k per student?
Perhaps they should be screaming at the Newark education officials, the Unions, their parents and themselves….
I couldn’t agree with your last two sentences more, prof. I thought the same things myself.
However, while I admit that a federal takeover is a long shot, and may not happen in my lifetime, I believe that someday it WILL happen. The Constitution is a living document — it has changed and it can do so again.
After all, I’ll bet you never thought the government would own a car company, did you?
Dear Readers,
Why cut education?
Why should my classes of 30 people get even bigger?
Why cut funding when there already aren’t enough books for my Italian class?
Why don’t the adults of Montclair support my teachers?
Why don’t the adults of Montclair care about my education?
Why don’t those who educate the future of America deserve decent benefits/pay?
Why does Christie want to cut public education funding but also cut the rich populations taxes?
Why is it that throughout history America has always supported education in hard times, shown through the GI Bill or “research and development” projects…but today we throw education out the window?
Why is New Jersey ready to sacrifice the future?
Why?
Because we can no longer afford to!
If you think you can equate slight increases in the teachers contribution to their benefits as throwing education out the window, then perhaps you need to be reeducated.
Oh Casey, no one is throwing education out the window. We need to revisit the way we pay for public education as well as the way we compensate our public employees. No one is saying teachers shouldn’t get decent pay…only that they shouldn’t get decent pay for not working anymore often starting at the age of 50 and continuing for another 30+ years.
Caseybangs: Do you know what a Tax Sale Certificate is? Do you know that Montclair takes peoples’ homes to pay the salaries of your beloved teachers?
“Mudpuppet” had the most realistic and interesting of all comments (above), so I’m going to play it again:
Here it is:
“NJ is bankrupt, and we have been for several years. The student protest are a cute sideshow…the bigger picture is absolutly sickening yet no one wants to look. We are caught up with 2% pay freezes while we still owe 49 billion to the state pension system. Are you kidding me? Wait for it, we havent seen anything yet. Greece and half of Europe are sliding off a cliff. California, Indiana, NY and NJ are in the same trouble. I’ll say it again, you haven’t seen anything yet.”
No, Casey, I for one do not care particularly much about your, uh, education. Even as I note, as has been frequently remarked on before, that teachers generally come from the bottom quarter of class rankings. So I do remain concerned that teaching, as a valued and important profession, does not attract the best students, and I only wish it did. (As opposed to so many of the whiners and whingers who seem to populate the NJEA, that is.) No, too, this does not make me a fan of investment bankers and the folks who run hedge funds (or even, in the main, of lawyers and MBA’s in general); teachers and those who serve in the military alike are much higher up the moral scale in terms of contributions to the public good in my opinion.
But no one is asking for the future to be “sacrificed.” Rather, there is now public wonder as to how the future can in fact be financed without the burden of increased taxes. Especially since we have contractual obligations to the teachers which can’t easily be met but must be met nonetheless. So perhaps if you’re really, really, really serious about contributing to this debate, you and your colleagues in education might suggest both alternative ways of financing public education and places other than education in which to cut budgets. Along with givebacks. And in lieu of your apparent whininess above.
For my part, I also wish you and your friends didn’t often seem so doggoned opposed to charter schools, but that’s a debate topic for another thread someday.
Why increase my already outrageous taxes?
Why build a new school that only adds a handful of additional seats to the student count?
Why add Mandarin to the curriculum during such tight fiscal times?
Why is there a fairly new Community Affairs department created at the central office that did nothing until it was pointed out that it existed?
Why spend money and cut down trees to move a ball field 17 feet?
Why?
Speaking of salaries and use of government monies, I found this article from NorthJersey.com quite interesting.
So, is Christie really practicing what he preaches? Is he putting the state’s money where his mouth is? Or is his administration just more raid-the-state-coffers politics-as-usual?
What exactly has Luna, the Political Director of the Ocean County GOP, done in public service to merit a starting salary of $65,000?
I’m not going to pretend for a second that I know the burden of paying taxes because no matter what I know about it I have never had to pay them myself, therefore most of the people who replied to me are more experienced in that sense.
While several points I read are valid, several are not. No matter what is being cut or what “ball park is being moved” guess who makes the decisions? Well it’s not the students.
The whole point of the protest was not to annoy the good people of Montclair with our so called sheepish/ignortant/”whininess”-like behavior, but to point attention to the fact that what is being done by those in power concerning education is wrong. So yeah maybe moving the baseball field over is a waste of money, but actually the baseball field goes into the football field…so is that a waste of money? For those of you who would say that it is, well is it the students that are giving the “OK” on that project? No.
To the person saying that teachers are just going to be losing a little bit of money and that the education will be fine… really? Because the last time I checked 60% of our funding is a big deal, losing over 20 teachers ALREADY at MHS is a big deal.
I would love to personally invite any adult responding to my posts to Montclair High School next year and to then tell me that budget cuts don’t effect my education.
Cather,
Casey is a high school student. I doubt very much that she and her friends are opposed to charter schools. I have not heard any opinions about charter schools voiced by the students.