Chris Christie may look more like a linebacker than a tango dancer, but he sure is tangoing with the Republican Party these days. A step forward, a sudden pull back. You vant me. Maybe you can have me. But — no no no!
Last night, Christie traveled far from Trenton when he flew to the Reagan Library to praise the Gipper and compare Obama to Jimmy Carter.
Setting himself up as a candidate for next year’s GOP nomination by appearing before the national press at the shrine of the GOP’s most enduring recent hero? No, he says, a thousand times no. But others, including former New Jersey Governor Tom Kean, say yes.
Well, it’s time for the Baristanet Governor Christie Declares Himself for President Pool. Tell us in the comments below when you think he’ll toss his sombrero in the race and — if you come closest to the real date — you’ll win an authentically local, vintage Baristanet mug. If you want, we’ll even throw in a Barista-recorded message on your home answering machine.
Meanwhile, chew on this.
Christie graphic via Obamacon.me.
October 15th is my guess.
But if President Obama is so weak and so beatable– why, supposedly, can no one possibly do it except Christie?
August 2015. It’s too soon this election.
Never
No Spiro, Obama is looking strong! At this rate he’s a shoe-in for the winner of the public opinion limbo contest. The bar is as low as it can go, but he can still get under it with room to spare. A few more months of this “leadership” and the “draft Hillary” drumbeat will be loud and clear.
He’s not running.
He’s smart enough to stay out of this race. It’s good to be wanted and needed. It’s not so good to jump in to a presidential election at this juncture.
9/27/15 High Noon.
10/3/11
Draft Hillary is actually a fine idea, deadeye. She can beat Obama. Christie, too. In fact, I wouldn’t mind a Clinton/Christie combo in the White House. I think they’d work together well. They’re both intelligent, cunning, and would be respectable on the world stage.
I’m with Fraublucher — 2015.
He’s put on more weight. The stress of being POTUS worries me that he might succumb to a heart attack or stroke. He’ll need some will power to push it away from the table at all those rubber chicken fund raisers. Anyway, I say he’s not running until he cures NJ first.
I like your idea Spiro.
I would say November 15, 2011.
He is an almost certain candidate. Has all the customary non-qualifications of recently selected candidates – short incumbancy as a Governor with no political history – no position on international issues – no bad record (eventhough short) as a governor. (Think Clinton,Dukakis,Romney etc.) Has a very photogenic family. With a name like Chris Christie has to be the darling of most “faith – believer” groups. Handled the “Irene” crisis smoothly with the benefit of the lessons taught by the New Orleans hurricane fiasco and the Gulf oil disaster. Has all the advantages of Perry with none of the idiotic baggage. He is almost a sure bet.
Spectator
I’ll give you two predictions for price of one. He will announced about the same time as Sarah Palin, for some of the same reasons – e.g. stay clear of the ridiculous multi-candidate “debate” charade.
Spectator
Oct. 15th
I cannot see Christie loosing! He has umph, personality, is forthcoming, I believe extremely honest and intelligent, and I also I believe he has high morals. He pulls no punches and tells it as it is. He does not “sugar-coat” things to be “popular” because he is allready popular. He is the breath of fresh air that the masses have been begging for a long time, now.
He has my vote, 1st time Repub vote, since Ronnie Reagen !!
He may not be evangelical enough for the social conservatives. In the Ledger Tom Moran called for him to “bring the Republican Party back from the edge of the cliff where the Tea Party has pushed them.” Or words to that effect.
Obama may indeed be a weak candidate. But the Republican Party has been highjacked & is in disarray.
Another candidate who is generally electable, but would never pass the ‘purity’ tests required by the crazies. Christie’s got union-fighting cred and gives good speeches, but doesn’t toe the party line (meaning he’s rational) on immigration, evolution, and a women’s right to choose.
I’d be disappointed in Christie if he changed his mind and tossed his hat in the Republican circus. He’s learning his trade in his leadership role in NJ. He’ll gain much more by staying here.
He won’t run this time. Hillary is the one to watch. Clinton/Christie? Hadn’t thought about that! Interesting but I think very unlikely.
The bar is as low as it can go, but he can still get under it with room to spare.
You know things are bad for Obama when there’s no comeback to deadeye’s comments.
November 1, 2011
I hope he runs.
I’d love to see him steering the ship of state:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TKXR7w1Zyjo/TbAtnbJFmeI/AAAAAAAACJw/OpTuxQ44P3A/s1600/fat+guy
Given the relative difficulty of defeating an incumbent, I’d say he’s going to wait it out until the next election when he stands a better chance. But then again, that could be risky given there is much that can happen in four years and while he’d probably be the strongest (and most sane) Republican candidate now, he may not be so in four years.
You know things are bad for Obama when there’s no comeback to deadeye’s comments.
And what does it say about the Republican contenders that someone who’s not even running (two someones, actually) gets so much attention? The bar may be low, but no Republican challenger seems capable of stepping over it.
Right now there are two viable Republican candidates, both with major issues, and a pack of looney tunes. None of the poll numbers I’ve seen show any of the republicans with a lead over Obama, despite the economy.
I don’t understand how the real Republicans have allowed their party to be taken over by the lunatic fringe. That someone like Bachman can actually be taken seriously by anyone is astounding. And Perry….oy. And the fact that most of them are proud to declare stupidity and ignorance when it comes to science just makes me scratch my head. It’s as though it’s a badge of honor to be an idiot, as long as you’re angry enough and can pray away the problems.
“and a pack of looney tunes.”
Sounds like the Dem contenders last time, only probably is we ended up with Dumbo and Goofy.
“I don’t understand how the real Republicans have allowed their party to be taken over by the lunatic fringe.”
I would look into your own house first. ‘Lunatic fringe’ is your opinion. I’d vote for anyone of them if that’s what it take to get rid of this joke in the WH now. Remember you have Debbie Wasserman Schultz in your camp I’d be careful before I threw around the term ‘lunatic’.
“I would look into your own house first.”
There are those that take extremist positions in any party. However, I’m unaware of any party other than the GOP that has people so eager to vote for the wilfully ignorant. I’m similarly unaware of any other party that is so entrenched with a culture of death that executions are cheered.
…Andrew
“None of the poll numbers I’ve seen show any of the republicans with a lead over Obama, despite the economy.”
There is one GOP candidate that pretty steadily polls ahead of Obama: Gene Ric. I don’t actually know this fellow, but he seems to be the only one with a chance in the general election. Any GOP candidate of a different name does worse.
…Andrew
Even if we say that Wasserman Schultz is as crazy as Michele Bachmann (which is quite a stretch), she’s not running for the most powerful position in the free world. Bachmann is.
A while ago, Bachmann went to the house floor and declared that because Carbon Dioxide occurs naturally, it can’t be harmful. Her husband runs a clinic that claims to “cure” homosexuality. Loons.
“I’m unaware of any party other than the GOP that has people so eager to vote for the wilfully ignorant. ”
Don’t look far, Dems did it a few years ago with the guy in the WH now. This clueless in over his head light weight finds new ways of showing his ignorance each day.
here’s another doozy you should be proud of.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/27/nc-governor-recommends-suspending-democracy-to-focus-on-jobs/
Christie will come to the B’net Halloween dressed like a Presidential candidate and announce it there. He will ask walleroo to be his v.p. contender.
The “guy” in the WH now is far from willfully ignorant. And yes, Bachman and Palin and Perry are “loons”.
While I don’t put too much faith in pollsw at this point, Harris shows Ron Paul leading the President 51-49%.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Ron-Paul-Bests-Obamain-Latest-bw-3821734650.html?x=0&.v=1
“The “guy” in the WH now is far from willfully ignorant. And yes, Bachman and Palin and Perry are “loons”.”
In your opinion.
Thankfully a good part of the country doesn’t think the way you ‘intellectually elite’ residents of b’ville do. Gotta run, have to brush up on my Toni Morrison poetry. bwahhahahahaa
Talk about your willfully ignorant. “bwahhahahahaa” says it all.
He will ask walleroo to be his v.p. contender.
Not after he sees my costume.
Actually, herb, if ” a good part of the country ” of which you speak were as fringe as you,
Bachmann or Perry would have sewn up the nomination by now.
But they didn’t.
That should tell you something.
“Thankfully a good part of the country doesn’t think the way you ‘intellectually elite’ residents of b’ville do. ”
I don’t want people with low IQ’s and a woeful disregard for education and science running the country. Rich and powerful interests have waged war against the well informed for years and we’re now seeing the fruits of that. Keep ‘em stupid, get them all riled up against the “elite intellectuals” and convince them that regulations and taxes are bad. And there’s no such thing as global climate change. And creationism is a scientific theory. And let’s keep out the immigrants, make abortion illegal while we keep executing the innocent, and everyone knows gays and lesbians choose their lifestyle despite evidence that it’s genetic and they shouldn’t be allowed to get married, and everyone should have unrestricted access to guns.
“Gotta run, have to brush up on my Toni Morrison poetry. bwahhahahahaa”
What a pleasure to see Herb now trafficking in the “look, there’s a reader—let’s get ‘em!” mentality making this such a pleasant country right now.
Truly frightening…
“In your opinion.”
Can you provide a citation for Obama saying something as blatantly ridiculous as vaccines cause mental retardation? Note that this is *after* Wakefield’s fraud was discovered, and after “Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality”.
…Andrew
Someone really wants him to run…
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/09/28/2011-09-28_nj_gov_chris_christie_can_beat_the_rest_of_gop_field__and_president_obama__in_th.html
Andrew, in response to your 1:50 post —this is usually the part where montclairgirl reminds us for the 57th time that President Obama once said there were 57 states. Which he said once. But montclairgirl has reminded us of this 57 times, so it seems like he said it more than once, as we all walk into a hall of mirrors.
You paint with too broad a brush Jerseygurl. Of course we have climate change but I thought the question is to what extent is it man made. Are we to have any say on who may move and live here or can the rest of the world just move in ad lib? Are creationists entitled to the same tolerance given to other looney faiths? ….god speaking to moses…son-of-god born of a virgin, borne to heaven on a winged white horse, gold tablets dug up state NY, end-of-earth-now evangelists — which looney faith are you shilling for? Obama’s born again Christianity?
Tolerance for another’s belief is one thing. Voting for for them is something else entirely. I would not want a religious fundamentalist to be president.
Andrew, my favorite….
“You’re likeable enough, Hillary.”
That’s the trouble with a lot of Lefties (notice I didn’t say “all”). They love to paint everyone with the same brush.
If you are of the conservative persuasion, well then you must not believe in evolution or science in general. You must be a religious fanatic. You must be sgainst ALL forms of taxation. You must hate gay people, immigrants (legal and otherwise). It’s as if they can only see the world in black and white and have ignored the many and varied shades of gray.
I know I confuse a lot of people because I define myself as a conservative but I favor science over religion, believe in gay marriage, support a woman’s right to choose. Yes, I think we pay way too many taxes but I don’t think we should abolish all taxes. I don’t think people should be living in this country illegally, no matter their country of origin. I believe that the earth, since the dawn of time and way before there was such a thing as man or industry, has gone through dramatic climactic changes. We have little, if any, control over it.
I also believe that, next to Richard Nixon, Obama is the worst President we’ve ever had, in my lifetime. He is taking this country down a path we’ve never gone before and not in a good way. But don’t just take my word for it. Talk to many of the same people who voted for him.
I never thought I would say this but if we have to have another Democratic President, I would rather see Hillary in office.
“Obama once said there were 57 states”
That was pretty odd. I’m not comfortable equating these two, though. One is an error where the mistaken speaker clearly did know the truth. Nor is he lying to make some sort of political point (eg. “not intended to be a factual statement”). He simply misspoke.
On the other hand, citing discredited pseudo-science is a bit more complex than making a simple – and admittedly embarrassing – mistake. For example, I could forgive someone the error of claiming the world was ball-shaped. But calling it flat is another matter altogether.
…Andrew
“I don’t understand how the real Republicans have allowed their party to be taken over by the lunatic fringe.”
The roots go back 30 years ago, beginning with Reagan’s unholy alliance with the so called “Moral Majority” – and while these kooks are by no means “moral” , they do appear to be the solidly entrenched “majority” – at least when it comes down to controlling Republican politics at various state and local levels throughout the country.
“If you are of the conservative persuasion, well then you must not believe in evolution or science in general. You must be a religious fanatic. You must be sgainst ALL forms of taxation. You must hate gay people, immigrants (legal and otherwise). It’s as if they can only see the world in black and white and have ignored the many and varied shades of gray.”
You’re avoiding the point of the conversation. This isn’t about generic conservatives (or even Gene Ric, the one GOP non-candidate that could win the general election). This is about the current crop of candidates and their chances in the primary.
In fact, there is one candidate that is clearly *not* anti-science. Sadly, his chances aren’t stellar.
I’ve long argued that the “social conservatives” that are largely leading the GOP today are not at all “conservative” in the sense that they want *more* government involvement in personal lives. Similarly, the anti-taxers in the GOP cannot be called “financially conservative” in the usual sense.
…Andrew
“I also believe that, next to Richard Nixon, Obama is the worst President we’ve ever had, in my lifetime.”
Did you forget about a certain individual named “W” ?
“Of course we have climate change but I thought the question is to what extent is it man made.” yes, spectator, that is THE question. I’ve not found an answer yet in my lay research and I’m fascinated by those non scientists who think they have.
Ms Martta, I think people here are making a distinction between a conservative like Christie and a conservative like Bachman or Perry. I don’t think all conservatives are Tea Partiers — but the Tea Party has wielded undue influence on the Republican Party to the detriment of the nation, in my opinion.
“That’s the trouble with a lot of Lefties (notice I didn’t say “all”). They love to paint everyone with the same brush.” MM
Not true MM, most lefties (notice I didn’t say “all) are very aware that the Ayn Rand fan club, the Bible Thumpers and the Wall Street Tycoons are very different types of Republicans. And, that Chris Christie is a fourth type.
I’ve not found an answer yet in my lay research
Well, keep looking. While you look, 97% of the people who are paid to care about this stuff agree that human activity is the cause. But there’s that darn 3%. It must be a hoax!
Johnqp: Under the Man Who Shall Be Known as W, the majority of my friends and family members were gainfully employed, were not worrying about going into foreclosure, and did NOT pay $4+ for a gallon of milk or get gouged at the gas station.
I’ve long argued that the “social conservatives” that are largely leading the GOP today are not at all “conservative” in the sense that they want *more* government involvement in personal lives. Similarly, the anti-taxers in the GOP cannot be called “financially conservative” in the usual sense.
…Andrew
You make a cogent point here, Andrew, and I did touch on this a bit yesterday, re: the hypocrisy of some of those in the Republican Party, specifically the Tea Partiers. They say they are for “less government” but they want to enforce what goes on in our bedrooms and elsewhere that should be none of their business. They say they are for less spending but then want to increase the size of government and bureacrats. Can’t have it both ways and be credible.
But then again, I don’t align myself with the Tea Partiers. They don’t speak for me.
“Under the Man Who Shall Be Known as W, the majority of my friends and family members were gainfully employed, were not worrying about going into foreclosure, and did NOT pay $4+ for a gallon of milk or get gouged at the gas station.”
That ignores the increasing financial instability of the nation which actually toppled into obvious trouble before his departure. Claiming that all was well under his reign is akin to calling someone with an illness healthy merely because he or she is not yet symptomatic. Sadly, plenty of ailments hide – in some cases, hiding until it is too late.
…Andrew
Yes, and “W” had nothing to do with what is wrong with the economy now. Yeah. Right.
MM, that’s called “being a great host and then leaving the check for the next guy”.
should read, “and add more bureaucrats.”
“I don’t align myself with the Tea Partiers”
Please understand that many of us know this. Unfortunately, you’re not in charge of the GOP right now.
…Andrew
Also, lets ignore the war that he started for no good reason, which left hundreds of thousands dead and continues to add to the deficit the right keeps screaming about. While we’re on that topic, we should also not talk about the tax cuts that disproportionally favored the rich, which lead to the worst income disparity in our nation’s history (and also added to the deficit).
Bush will go down as the worst president in modern times.
Gasoline also hit $4+ a gallon under W. – and EVERYTHING else (foreign and domestic) simply just hit the fan under his watch , period.
Well, I can only speak for myself, of course. I was a lot better off financially under W, my buck went further. (Not that I am in love with everything about W, just an observation). I also didn’t have this feeling of impending dread hanging over me. Everything I read in the paper and hear on the news today is just so negative and there doesn’t appear to be a light at the end of the tunnel.
Except that murder rates are down in most of our large cities, yes, but that’s due to better police mobilization than the man in the White House.
“I also didn’t have this feeling of impending dread hanging over me.”
Same feeling I had when W was in the White House!
“You paint with too broad a brush Jerseygurl.”
Hardly. I am merely pointing out that the overwhelming majority of conservatives have allowed one of our two main parties to be swayed by a “fringe” group of extremists. Radicals. And corporate interests have been very successful at waging a propaganda campaign to help catapult these people into the mainstream and move the political discourse into territory that is not rational. If you want to believe in Creationism, go ahead. But I don’t want my elected officials forcing schools to teach it as science. If you think being an “intellectual” is a bad thing, that’s your choice. I prefer my elected officials to have some book learnin’ and know that foreign policy is a lot more nuanced than being able to “wave” to Russia from Alaska.
Most conservatives are smarter than the kooks that now seem to represent the party. However, they have allowed this kind of thinking to be front and center stage and they have put up Presidential candidates that once would have been considered embarrassing. Again, because if they can get a big enough part of their base to be more angry and more fearful they control the dialogue. And the bow that ties it all together is lower taxes and less regulation. If only businesses could do what they want. It’s truly radical. And truly subversive.
Getting back to Christie -I initially agreed with his decision to cancel the the midtown tunnel project, but what else has he proposed in order to try and solve problem ?
MM – you were better off under Clinton. Things started to decline when W took over. The global economic collapse happened on his watch. And waging two wars and cutting taxes at the same time was just stupid. Unless he was even more shrewd than I give him credit for and decided that financial ruin was the only way to starve the beast. Again, pretty subversive stuff.
excuse me …I meant to say “solve THE problem” ?
BTW – Anyone know the whereabouts of William Howard Taft’s old bathtub ?….. Just in case.
“I also didn’t have this feeling of impending dread hanging over me.”
In retrospect, you should have. At the end of his term, the disease had progressed sufficiently far that symptoms started to appear. We’re still trying to recover.
But it isn’t fair to blame the disease on the person that came later. You can disagree with how he’s since tried to recover, but even in that you need to account for a Congress with a stated top priority of making him a one-term President – a priority even more important than restoring the US economy. Separate but related, you need to account for increasing influence of the tea party.
I’m not thrilled with Obama’s work either, but it would be disingenuous to ignore the effort being put into causing him to fail.
…Andrew
“I initially agreed with his decision to cancel the the midtown tunnel project, but what else has he proposed in order to try and solve problem”
I’m in a similar position. There were aspects to that project – most notably, its inability to connect to anything else – that seemed like design flaws that would haunt us. Frankly, I couldn’t figure out why they were chosen.
But to just kill an important investment in transport infrastructure in an area with an expanding need to move people around, with no plans for a better idea, seems like a failure of leadership.
…Andrew
“Wall Street Tycoons are very different types of Republicans”
Really Spiro? Your quite misinformed (again)
John Corizine- DEMOCRAT
Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein -DEMOCRAT
Jp Morgan CEO Jamie Dimond- DEMOCRAT
Lehman CEO during collapse Richard Fuld- DEMOCRAT
Disney CEO Bob Iger- DEMOCRAT
Comcast CEO Brian Roberts- DEMOCRAT
ImClone thief CEO Sam Waskal- DEMOCRAT
Martha Stewart- Dem mega donor thief- DEMOCRAT
Oh, and let’s not forget one Wall Streets biggest DEMOCRATS
Berine Madoff !!!!!!
…Herb
I know I sound like a broken record but we will need someone with a brain for business/economics (i.e., Herman Cain) to attempt to get us out of this financial mess. I’m sorry, but I do not think the Obama Administration has what it takes to do this.
If the Democratic Party can come up with someone from its camp who fits the bill, more power to them. But we cannot re-elect the same peeps and expect different results.
I meant Bernie Madoff
…Herb
Got to admit …you may actually have a point there, Herbie.
MM – I ‘ve said it befora and I’ll say it again : Herman Cain is a bigot.
Herb, lets see how those democrats vote with their wallets next election. Dodd-Frank alone has turned Wall Street pretty red these days.
And lets not kid ourselves about which party is supported by the upper class. Otherwise, the Bush tax cuts would look very different.
“But we cannot re-elect the same peeps and expect different results.”
Again, though, you’re putting the blame for the disease on the person that came later. More, you’re ignoring the barrier of Congress. In fact, you’re ignoring the specifics of the policies being pushed by the GOP-lead House.
I’d change Congress before changing the President. This is for a simple reason: I don’t believe that either further deregulation or cutting spending with no revenue enhancement is good for this nation. This is too close to how we got into trouble under Bush. More, these problematic policies are largely pushed by the same people that helped us get into that trouble (the GOP leaders of Congress). We’ve tried cutting taxes and cutting regulation. We’ve been burned.
We cannot follow the same path and expect different results.
Secondarily: The current crop of candidates from the GOP doesn’t look promising. Romney or Cain or Huntsman would get a closer look, but I suspect that they can only win the primary by saying things that would scare me (see above).
But given a choice of Perry, for example, versus Obama, Obama is the easy choice.
…Andrew
Wait, Dare I forget…….The Presidents right hand man and CEO of GE. You know the guy that runs a company that paid no taxes last year, took a bailout and recently announced they are trimming operations here and building plants overseas.
Jeff Imelt- DEMOCRAT
Right Spiro, those Wall St Republicans, heh,heh.
… Herb
Wait, I forgot more republicans , I mean Democrats on Wall St.
George Soros- DEMOCRAT
Warren Buffet- DEMOCRAT
… Herb
@mike91 I’ve read your link now if you would please read mine.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/8786565/War-of-words-over-global-warming-as-Nobel-laureate-resigns-in-protest.html
I’ll stay in the skeptic camp and I suspect more and more will join me there. I completely support keeping the earth clean. But I am greatly concerned about the laws that “green people” support which will negatively effect our economic growth. Christie thinks global warming is real but he pulled out of the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative after considering the evidence which convinced him the program was a bust!
Andrew, this is why these discussions/arguments always fall apart. There’s very little that’s rational coming from the other side. It’s all a feeling, or a belief. When presented with facts, the counter argument isn’t more facts, or an argument based on overwhelming evidence. It’s touchy-feely stuff. I was better off. I haven’t seen the science that proves that our climate is changing because of human activity and the earth will fix itself anyway. Lower taxes, less regulation are the path to economic recovery. Even when confronted with evidence to the contrary, the response is still the same – i just know it must be true because I believe it.
@ gurl You too might want to consider what Prof Glaever, a very prominent scientific dissenter regarding man-made global warming had to say when he recently resigned. Note too that he was a past supporter of the POTUS.
Now how did I forget. Top Obama fundraiser and CEO of UBS Investment Bank.
Bob Wolf- DEMOCRAT
http://nymag.com/news/politics/30634/
and
Mark Gallogly- Founder of Centerbridge Partners. An investment firm that specializes in leveraged buyouts and distressed securities. Yes, DEMOCRAT
Yup, those Republican Wall Streeters.
… Herb
Yes, Dag. And if you dig a little deeper you’ll find his connection to the Heartland and Cato institutes. The majority of the world’s scientists disagree with him. If you look into funding for the handful of deniers, you’ll see big oil
From littlegreenfootballs.com
Heartland Experts
The Heartland Institute is a front for creating and legitimatising right wing propaganda paid for by people like Exxon Mobil and Phillip Morris. They have a tremendous history of denying all sorts of science, like the notion that cigarettes cause cancer. You can also see him listed by them here:
If you continue looking down that list you can find well known “cigarettes are OK” activist and professional climate denier, Richard Lindzen, and Bjorn Lomborg as well. Amongst some of Heartland’s and co group Heritage Foundation’s more interesting stances, in addition to the usual climate denial and false ecological data has been a defence of US business use of overseas child and slave labor.
Gaiever also appeared on a full page ad denying climate change funded by the Cato institute.
The Cato Institute is funded by ExxonMobil, Phillip Morris the American Petroleum Institute (API) and Koch Family Foundations.
All of these groups have vast amounts of money poured into them by fossil fuel interests who want the science of climate quashed. They want it quashed because if people took it seriously and the coming catastrophe of unmitigated climate change seriously, then people would use other sources of energy than fossil fuels. It is all about lying for money at the expense of future generations and even our own. These groups get the false science they are paid to produce and then propagandise it.
I’d take Warren Buffett over the Koch Brothers any day.
@DagT He makes some interesting points, but also some telling errors.
I like his complaint about the word “incontrovertible”. That’s a word of religion; not experimental science.
On the other hand, he cites previous warnings about acid rain, ozone hole, and deforestation as examples of problems that never manifested. This ignores that the warnings yielded behavioural changes intended to prevent/mitigate those problems (ie. the Clean Air Act).
That’s a very peculiar oversight.
More, his comment about not having to worry about “a bit of warming” because he’s Norwegian is silly. This is an issue of rising average global temperatures. It’s not a “local” issue.
Silly plus peculiar…it’s odd.
…Andrew
I’ll stay in the skeptic camp and I suspect more and more will join me there
Even terms like the “vast majority” don’t mean everyone. He seems to have a problem with the stance that global warming is “incontravertible,” not with global warming itself. Funny how the article gives no evidence that global warming isn’t happening though, doesn’t it? His comments are along the lines of “I grew up somewhere cold, I’m not afraid of a little warming.” This is short sighted, at best.
You can be a skeptic all you like, in spite of the overwhelming evidence. But I reserve the right to consider you looking for evidence that supports your opinion, not the other way around.
To me the argument is valid when considering the human made percentage of impact on climate change. What is that percentage? Do you know? I don’t react to the fear based opinions such as: “the coming catastrophe of unmitigated climate change”. As for oil, big business etc. let me know when you’ve discarded your oil based necessities. I’m keeping and enjoying mine and the quality of life they bring me.
“Mark Gallogly- Founder of Centerbridge Partners. An investment firm that specializes in leveraged buyouts and distressed securities. Yes, DEMOCRAT”
And let’s also not forget the LBO track record of your current hero Mitt Romney:
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/09/mitt-romney-bain-capital-debate
Yes Andrew the word and concept incontrovertible is most important especially when government’s policies are formed.
Excellent, herb, looks like you did a bit of research. I am encouraged. You did find Democrats with big bucks. And, you are right, many of the very rich still vote for Democratic Party candidates.
(I guess you got tired of that Toni Morrison book. )
But you pretend that the high profile people you single out prove something about the voting habits of most wealthy in our land. But you’d be wrong. A week’s visit to Jackson Hole Wyoming or Sun Valley Idaho would make this very plain to you. Check it out, the scenery is outstanding.
Let me rephrase for you, herb. ( and for MM too )
An American Liberal can tell the difference between the Republican who wears a 5000 dollar suit, and a Republican who wears a three-cornered hat with tea bags hanging off the brim.
So herb, which one do you feel more affinity with?
“I don’t react to the fear based opinions such as: “the coming catastrophe of unmitigated climate change”. ”
I’m glad my kids don’t have the same reaction to such fear-based opinions as “if you cross the street w/o looking, you could get hit by a car”.
…Andrew
Now Spiro I’ve been to Jackson Hole and I wouldn’t have a clue as to how those folks in that cowboy town vote. I didn’t see a fancy $5000 suit while I was there but I did find some great photo opts.
Dag T, I’d be more encouraged by your point of view vis a vis “green” policy if you would admit that government policies have crippled our nation by cutting slack for the oil and coal industries. And not just Republicans. Democratic party officials from coal states and the Gulf are just as complicit as Republicans.
We need to learn from Germany.
Sure, Dag, the fancy suits are in the closet back east! Out there it’s pretend you’re a cowboy with perfect teeth if you’re not skiing. Moose heads on the walls and boots in the mud. Rustic cabins with 100,000 dollar kitchens. The money is vast and the votes are conservative. Having been there, and checking it out while enjoying the scenery, I can say this with certainty.
“As for oil, big business etc. let me know when you’ve discarded your oil based necessities. I’m keeping and enjoying mine and the quality of life they bring me.”
No one is denying the current need for oil. No one is saying big business is unnecessary. Only that the handful of scientists who deny that climate change is real or that is a result of human activity are funded by industries that benefit greatly from that denial, while the overwhelming majority of the rest of the scientists agree that the all the available data and evidence points to the opposite. Again, I’m just saying that a handful of industries have managed to get a lot of control over the political discourse on one side.
I agree Spiro I don’t want any special interests, including oil and coal to have privileges. But then I’d tax every single religious institution and their properties as well.
I don’t see the Reps as any better or worse than the Dems when it comes to government handouts.
Gurl I know of no scientist who “deny” climate change. The question is what is the true impact of humans. Do you discount the very big bucks that the green people are making at the possible expense of the citizenry? Shall I point to Solyndra?
I’m with you on this one Dag. Tax all industries and all religions. Start today.
Solyndra was a debacle, and other corporations have gone belly up in the last number of years. But the hypocrites who yell “Solyndra, Solyndra” on AM talk radio day and night were breathtakingly silent when those other businesses also went belly up. Enron comes to mind, for starters.
“But then I’d tax every single religious institution and their properties as well.”
Interestingly, if religious institutions weren’t exempt from taxation, we might have avoided the shift of sewage costs from our property taxes to a usage fee. This would have avoided a bit of financial chicanery on the part of the previous town council and also avoided a hidden tax increase as those fees were no longer tax deductible.
…Andrew
Wow. Broke 100 comments without ROC. Impressive.
POSTED BY DagT | SEPTEMBER 28, 2011 @ 6:00 PM
“Gurl I know of no scientist who “deny” climate change. The question is what is the true impact of humans. Do you discount the very big bucks that the green people are making at the possible expense of the citizenry? Shall I point to Solyndra?”
Please point out which scientists were paid by Solyndra to change their position on climate change. Do you really believe the alternate energy lobby has influenced 97% of the world’s scientists and the vastly more wealthy and powerful oil industry has only been able to pay off about 5 of them?
And this is not just about climate change. It’s a systemic problem. Oil, pharma, insurance and banking have convinced the religious right that low taxes and less regulation are going to solve our problems. Against all evidence to the contrary.
I will, as I often do, agree with MMMM.
Never
Thanks for the invite Spiro but I have also been to Jackson Hole and have seen the beautiful homes. I have also been to parts of Colorado and seen the beautiful homes there as well, hardly a bastion of Republicans. Matter of fact many of the homes in these areas are some of your most herald libs in the entertainment industry that jet or helicopter in for the weekend looking to get away. You know, the same ones that tell you and I how to lives our lives.
According to wiki hare are some people that call Sun Valley home. I’m sure you’ll agree its about split between political parties.
Arnold Schwarzenegger, Mats Wilander, Walter Annenberg, Adam West, Ernest Hemingway, Tom Hanks, Steve Miller, Demi Moore, Peter Cetera, Clint Eastwood, Bruce Willis, Ashton Kutcher, Richard Dreyfuss, Jamie Lee Curtis, Steve Wynn, Mohamed al-Fayed, Barbara Kent, Tony Robbins, and Lars Ilis. The Kennedy’s.
I guess the most shocking thing about that list is the addition of Adam West. I love the way you people now vilify people fro what they have. Shameful.
…Herb
i would vote for him. Calls it like it is. I wish republicans would just call the lib bluff on taxes and raise them. The truth is the hole (deficit) is so big that simply raising taxes on all of those billionaires (that somehow got their by making more than 250k a year! – mind boggling, but that is lib math for you) won’t cover it at all, in fact it does not even make a dent.
Without serious austerity and entitlement reform nothing makes a dent. This is why it is so disingenuous claim that we must fill the hole by raising taxes on the rich 250,000airs..and cutting spending.
So here is the deal, we need to cut spending hard and raise taxes ON EVERYONE!!!! This sucks a lot, but this is what we need to do. Simple as that.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2020427/Climate-change-far-alarmists-predict-says-NASA-scientist.html
MM, what’s your point? One other scientist out of a handful are not sure the most dire models are correct. Did you check his credentials? For every skeptic (there are a handful) I can pull out hundreds who disagree. You do know he’s a creationist?
“We believe Earth and its ecosystems — created by God’s intelligent design and infinite power and sustained by His faithful providence — are robust, resilient, self-regulating, and self-correcting, admirably suited for human flourishing, and displaying His glory. Earth’s climate system is no exception.”
There are indeed a small number of people in various areas of scientific study who believe climate change is a hoax, doesn’t exist or is not the result of human activity. Every single one that has ever been quoted here has either been funded by the oil industry or a conservative think tank or – in this case is a religious fanatic.
And again, the point I was trying to make is not that there is certainty and consensus about the extent of climate change that we can expect. The point I continue to try to make is that the dialogue on the right has become extreme and has become focused on social conservatism and religion. Rick Perry and Michelle Bachman believe climate change is a hoax – they won’t even acknowledge there might be some grounds for concern. They believe in Creationism. They are anti- abortion and anti-gay and anti-science. These are the people being put forward by one party and I don’t believe they represent mainstream conservatives.
“So here is the deal, we need to cut spending hard and raise taxes ON EVERYONE!!!! This sucks a lot, but this is what we need to do. Simple as that.”
And on this, we can agree.
Gurl I don’t have any reference of scientists involved with Solyndra. I only know of the millions of tax dollars wasted on that venture. Much of the research that takes place in the US is funded by government grants. The politics that facilitates those grants can be as onerous as the big business pressures you seem to fear. Those monies are our tax dollars at work. Check the political persuasion of many university research scientists and then consider their interests. There are flavors of the month in even these fine places of research and learning.
I’m not impressed with Perry. His attempt to discuss climate change was to say the least poor. I’d guess because he’s use to spiting sound bites without in depth knowledge. But his message as to concern regarding government regulations reached me. It’s so easy to label opposition as “nut jobs”, religious right etc. but those words do not encourage intelligent debate.
MM’s link and many more like it can be found. The discussion is not closed. Regulation for the most part can shut down important research and risk taking.
Gurl I’m an atheist and am uneasy with religious pressures in government but both sides use god in their deliveries of policies.
” It’s so easy to label opposition as “nut jobs”, religious right etc. but those words do not encourage intelligent debate.”
That’s the point. It’s hard to have intelligent debate with people who “believe” it’s possible to pray away the gay. Or say that climate change is a “hoax” because God’s earth will heal itself. Or that vaccines cause mental retardation. Or that creationism must be taught in science class. There’s no debate there because belief trumps rational dialogue.
And you’re right, there are flavors of the month when it comes to scientific research, however, these people don’t even believe in science.
Christie got a “Mostly False” from Politifact in today’s Ledger over his Reagan Library remarks on Obama & debt. It’s not the first time he’s played with facts. If he’s going to run for president, he’d better cut that out. Here in NJ, and in a controlled group of ardent supporters, he can bluster his way around facts. Nationally he would face a more rigorous scrutiny.
Obama just doesn’t learn. After the Solyndra disaster do you think he would step back and look at the program and see how that money is delved out?
Nah, the Dept. of Energy just approved two loan guarantees worth more than $1 billion to energy companies. They gave $737 million guaranteed loan to Tonopah Solar Energy and a $337 million guarantee for Mesquite Solar. The loans were under the same program that Solyndra got their money from.
The Energy Sec said that besides the temporary construction jobs $1,000,000,000 will create 52 permanent jobs.
One BILLION dollars for 52 jobs…now that’s what I call smart money.
Oh, now I know how these loans are determined.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/09/more-crony-socialism-obama-gives-737-million-to-pelosis-brother-in-laws-solar-firm/
Business as usual at the White House people, business as usual. I just wish it wouldn’t be on my dime. I guess it’s more Wall St Republicans at it again, heh, heh.
…Herb
The Wall Street protesters would do best to go where the real crooks are: The White House. And to be fair, I am referring to both parties.
He is not going to make us respectable on the world stage. He is going to affirm the idea that all Americans are fat, loud and too full of themselves. A favorite game is spot the Americans (hint they are the group of fat people)
Obama gave us respect on the world stage but now people in Europe think that he will be a one term president and we’ll (Americans) will forever use him as an example as why a president who isn’t white, rich and christian was tried but didn’t work out. They see this election as us never again voting for a minority or woman. It’s sad.
“A favorite game is spot the Americans (hint they are the group of fat people).”
Nothing for nothing, but there are plenty of fat people from Britain and Germany, to name a couple. We haven’t cornered the market on fat (yet).
On the contrary, I think Obama’s election opened the Presidential door for minorities and women. For that, I am thankful. However, I still think it’s too early for us to bask in the warmth of global respect. I just don’t see it. Plenty of people still hate us simply because we are Americans.
Herb,
As you know, government no bid contracts = no competitive bidding = lots of extra dimes coming out of herbeverschmel’s bank account.
Haliburton had lots of those contracts during those previous White House days. Yet I barely remember you saying a word about it. I don’t remember any opinions during the Enron debacle either.
Maybe you just weren’t on Baristanet yet.
I saw that Politifact article and was confused by the rating. They justify the “Mostly False” rating because the president did something similar to what the commission recommended. I thought it would be mostly true. From Politifact:
Christie claimed Obama has failed to stand up for the solutions proposed by his own deficit reduction commission. It is true that the president did not fully embrace the commission’s recommendations in the immediate months following its December report.
But since then, Obama has outlined deficit reduction measures similar to the commission’s recommendations. That’s why the governor is wrong to imply that Obama has done nothing with the commission’s proposals.
We rate the statement Mostly False.
Nothing for nothing, MM, but, having been to five countries in Europe, and Canada, as well as Israel and Palestine, as well as many states in the USA, including some of the Deep South,
I can say that no place we’ve ever seen resembles the line up of humans at an all -you-can-eat barbecue buffet in South Carolina.
Not sure how you are tying Enron into this Spiro? Did they receive Government support? Also, no bid contracts are different from loan guarantees. I don’t like no bid situations either but I don’t see how you can equate them to loan guarantees?
Citing forms of White House malfeasance, Kevin, and helping herb out so he doesn’t go too far with his selective memory, The specifics vary, as you indicate.
Spiro,
The reality is that Haliburton is the only American company that does that type of work and that can handle the work load. The Govt. still uses them to this day but for some reason its not an issue now that it is Obama Administration that is awarding them the no bid contracts. I don’t have a problem with them and never did. I miss the cries of Haliburton is bad by people that had no clue as to what they even did or why they got no bid contracts. Clinton used them for petes sake. Similar to the war, now that Obama is in charge were not inundated daily with casualty accounts. Here, this is from a conservative blog but you can look it up anywhere.
http://lonelyconservative.com/2010/05/remember-when-halliburton-was-a-dirty-word-obama-admin-gives-no-bid-contract-to-halliburton/
Enron…I don’t know why were talking about them 10+ years later but the scandal started to unravel in Feb of 2001, 1 month after GW took office, so under what administration was that allowed to permeate? What’s next, The Tea Pot Dome Scandal. Lets try to stay within this decade for arguments sake.
Spiro,
You are in dire need of a history lesson. You talk about WH malfeasance but once again, Enron started to unravel in Feb of ’01. Under the Clinton Administration that stock was trading at almost $100 a share. Nobody in his administration wondered as to why.
If Bush took office in Jan of ’01, the scandal started to unravel the next month and become public, so my question to you is, Under what administration was Enron allowed to run rough shod and who was in the WH at the time that ignored the signs?
I believe even you can do that math.
…Herb
Thanks for the lesson herb. Since you want to “stay within the decade” ( fair enough ), I’ll look forward to your being true to that criteria (in future discourses) and therefore utter ne’er a word about Whitewater should Hillary try to run for office down the road.
But I suspect,despite your principled insistence to “stay within the decade” during this afternoon’ s discussions, when Hillary’s time comes, you won’t be able to hold it in.
Your welcome Spiro.
…Herb
“That’s the point. It’s hard to have intelligent debate with people who “believe” it’s possible to pray away the gay. Or say that climate change is a “hoax” because God’s earth will heal itself. Or that vaccines cause mental retardation. Or that creationism must be taught in science class. There’s no debate there because belief trumps rational dialogue.”
This is so true and you wish that at this point that those who subscribe to the notions above would represent a much smaller % of the country. This is my biggest problem with the right. Biggest problem with the left is their inclination to set the level of accountability (thru various policy) so low that my pet dog could come close to achieving at that level.
The question is, how do we get smarter people to get involved in govt and lead and craft balanced policies?? I wonder what the average congressional IQ is? If I am handicapping say pelosis IQ im setting the over/under at 90 … i think i would still go with the under.
Accountability, ethics and intelligence…would be nice to find someone who had all three.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/09/more-crony-socialism-obama-gives-737-million-to-pelosis-brother-in-laws-solar-firm/
Saw something interesting in the paper. In 1912, Woodrow Wilson, who was governor of New Jersey, was elected President. Will history repeat itself 100 years later?
I never believed he was going to commit to running, and I bet he announces official withdrawal soon, maybe even this afternoon. October 4th?