It’s been a year and a half since Gov. Christie put a kabash on building the the ARC Tunnel. But Sen. Frank Lautenberg has just releaseed a Government Accountability Office (GAO) report, which he commissioned, refuting the governor’s two main reasons for canceling the project.
Christie had initially cited money as the reason for canceling the project. He said that the cost of the project had escalated by $8 billion since he had taken office in 2008. The GAO report found that the projected costs were essentially the same.
Additionally, Christie said that the state of New Jersey would be carrying 70 percent of the project’s costs. The GAO found the state would only shoulder 14 percent of the project’s cost.
The ARC tunnel was planned as a train tunnel that would have connected New Jersey and midtown Manhattan via the Hudson River, and meet the ever-increasing need to expand rail capacity for daily commuters. The tunnel, which was scheduled to be completed by 2018, would have doubled train capacity, according to NJ.com.
Christie’s decision to officially terminate the project in October 2010 cost the state approximately $95 million. The feds initially asked the state to pony up the $271 million it had already spent.
“This was the most important transportation project of our time,” Senator Lautenberg said in a press release today.
“ARC was critical to the future of New Jersey’s economy and it took years to plan, but Gov. Christie wiped it out with a campaign of public deception,” said Lautenberg. “New Jerseyans who commute into New York City already face near daily struggles with an overburdened rail system and jammed highways, bridges and tunnels. We are at capacity, and our only hope for relief in this decade was ARC. Construction had already started and thousands of workers were about to be hired when the Governor killed the project. The future of New Jersey’s commuters was sacrificed for the short term political needs of the Governor.”
The report can be read here.
“[R]efuting the governor’s two main reasons for canceling the project” is a nice way of saying he lied.
“Sen. Frank Lautenberg has just released a Government Accountability Office (GAO) report, which he commissioned”. Wow..He commissioned a report and it supports his position, has there ever been a report someone paid for which refutes their position.
Did he commission a report for the WTC site, started at $11 billion and was last estimated at $15 billion and is going up every day.
P.S.
Frank Lautenberg is still alive ??
Problem is when Lousenberg says “our time” for him it can mean Sock Hops with Bobbie-socks and saddle shoes.
Sure, these things never come in over budget. Would I love to have improved access to the city, sure, but I’m done with this crew purposely underestimating costs and them leaving it to the good old Garden State to pick up the difference. Of course we could just raise the Lincoln tunnel tolls to $50. After all, it’s just our money.
Most people were unaware it was only a multi-billion dollars rail tunnel for NJ Transit. Not for cars, bueses, trucks, heavy commerce, etc., which have their own huge issues, which the rail tunnel could not have solved. Car commuters don’t want to ride the trains. Buses serve huge swaths of the state that rail lines simply can’t reach. Trucks can’t ride the rails. Commerce has to be delivered into and out of the ARC, but not by a commuter rail. Frankly, as a daily commuter on NJT, I never understood what all the fuss was about. The trains run well almost all of the time (Amtrak causes the most delays), are never overcrowded, and it is probably the best mass transit system in the nation (ever ride LIRR?). During the worst recession of our lives, the governor was right to cancel it. Lautenberg already has the Secaucus Junction station named after him. Was he getting greedy by wanting the tunnel in his name too?
Would I love to have improved access to the city, sure, but I’m done with this crew purposely underestimating costs and them leaving it to the good old Garden State to pick up the difference.
Except the report states that at the time of the Governor’s announcement, no final decision had been made on who pays for overruns. So, again, lying.
Wow..He commissioned a report and it supports his position, has there ever been a report someone paid for which refutes their position.
Howsabout disputing the facts in the report before claiming bias? Did the Governor lie about the ARC so he could replenish the transportation fund or not?
The trains run well almost all of the time (Amtrak causes the most delays), are never overcrowded, and it is probably the best mass transit system in the nation (ever ride LIRR?).
Hilarious. The Times cited a report that states by 2030, ridership on these lines will increase by 38%. Except that these tunnels are currently running at capacity. So the future of commuting is solid!
Plus, there are environmental and financial reasons to encourage mass transit over driving. But that requires forward thinking. At least our gas prices are several cents cheaper than surrounding states.
How about disputing the facts of the report before claiming bias?
So Mike, you want to pay for the tunnel? Can we raise your property taxes again for it? Would that help? By the way, since when is predicting what ridership is going to look like in 2030 a “science.”
briggatista, you ride the train every day and don’t see the problem? What train are you on?
The mornings are far worse than the evenings, with the semi-express usually arriving 10-15 minutes late each day. Any time something goes wrong, it is a catastrophic domino effect and we get rerouted into hoboken almost an hour late. Its time for additional tunnels.
Oh good, a timely report. That will make a difference.
I think the take-away from this is clear: to this governor integrity is simply something you find in the dictionary.
Far better on this one than to claim (quite mistakenly, I believe) that Governor Christie lacks integrity is to recognize that Lautenberg, in one of those very rare instances when he does not seem dozey and totally out of it, has latched onto this non-issue as a means of providing jobs and economic succour to the Dems’ pals, construction unions. But as someone above has already sharply noted, cost overruns would be extremely likely on this one (thus actually making Christie extremely farsighted). Also, this gigantic boondoggle would be completed long, long after Lautenberg himself goes to his etenral reward. So he’s likely not in the least concerned about how those who survive him and future generations will pay for it.
Beware of politicians with only a few years left on this mortal coil who propose wildly costly construction projects, in other words.
Perhaps, too, Lautenberg is merewly miffed that his main political mjonument to date is that ghost town of a services-less train station in Secaucus.
Given that I and everyone else was going to hemorrhage money anyway in financial meltdowns due to miscreants and malfeasance, wars, runaway property taxes, artificial hikes in the price of gasoline, etc., I would have happily seen my hard earned tax dollars go into infrastructure aimed at a greener transportation system than, say, a resurrection of Xanadu or paying for Panasonic to move from Secaucus to Newark, or paying for Prudential to stay in Newark. But that’s just not Christie’s style, and hey, what do I know.
But as someone above has already sharply noted, cost overruns would be extremely likely on this one (thus actually making Christie extremely farsighted).
Reading comprehension, you old hack. Not the point. If there were going to be cost overruns, who was responsible for paying for them was not yet decided, contrary to what Governor Slush Fund said.
By the way, since when is predicting what ridership is going to look like in 2030 a “science.”
Is that a joke? See, there’s this thing called forecasting, where you take historical trends, check for the likelihood that they’ll continue and extrapolate the trends into the future. But I wouldn’t suspect anyone that asks that dumb a question to know anything about it.
The future of New Jersey’s commuters was sacrificed for the short term political needs of the Governor.
That’s how politics often works.
Car commuters don’t want to ride the trains.
That’s an interesting argument against mass transit–it doesn’t accommodate cars.
The trains run well almost all of the time
Except for the morning and evening rush hours.
(Amtrak causes the most delays)
Yup, which is the argument for another tunnel.
trains… are never overcrowded
Really? I want to know precisely which trains you take.
…and it is probably the best mass transit system in the nation
That must be an awfully low bar.
I miss the like thumbs. I would haved liked to like all of the posts following Cranky’s.
JG….Who’s cranky? I don’t see Mr.Cranky’s gravatar. Must be the Roo, he’s getting another beatin’ by the man today in the “Team” conference room.
Looks to me that this would have benefited some small number of people (those who commute to NYC to Penn Station via train only), while not benefiting most other people. The rides enhanced would be primarily during rush hour as there is no need during the other hours. So the end result would be that we would improve the rides of a very small percentage of people for a limited time of day. It would have created jobs, which would have been a very good thing, but the benefits of the end result based on future commuting projections was not justification to do it. Especially given that many people are now telecommuting.
Regardless of who said what when this does not make this a good idea. There are better proposals (e.g. extend the NYC subway to New Jersey) that would benefit far more people, but this proposal did not.
The governor should call Lautenberg’s bluff. Announce immediately that if Lautenberg will introduce a bill limiting NJ’s exposure to the project to 14% of the original budgeted price and the bill is made law, he’ll withdraw his opposition.
PAZ, it’s my nickname for Cathar.
I haven’t read the report yet, but WNYC’s report on the GAO analysis made two important points.
One, that the GAO analysis did not consider the NJ Turnpike contributions and the Port Authority contributions as part of “New Jersey’s” share of the project. Since the governor could and did direct those moneys to other projects, the NJ Turnpike etc funds should be added to the 14% NJ Transit share.
Two, the GAO analysis looked at “the tunnel” as Senator Lautenburg requested. It did not look at the South Portal bridge, and the mile of track necessary to connect it to the tunnel’s entrance. Both are expensive elements of the project.
———
I’d also note that the governor mentioned the unwillingness of the feds to share any over runs on cost. It would have been very easy for Senator Lautenburg or President Obama to call the governor’s bluff (if it was a bluff) and agree to split the excess costs. They didn’t.
Governor Corzine pushed the project through at a speed unusual for NJ. Given his expertise with managing complex investments at Goldman Sachs and MF Global, what could possibly have gone wrong?
Again, it is amazing to see so many above apparently enoouraging Lautenberg to be so free with their money long years after he’ll himself be gone. Jerseygurl, aren’t you at all concerned about who’ll pay the tariff for YOUR assisted living residence? I somehow doubt Senator Lautenberg will allow for that in his will, after all.
And walleroo, stop with the mock innocence. You know very well what the poster who listed so many salient objections to this third tunnel was on about. The simple truth is that vast swaths of New Jersey, prime commuting country (anyway, prime commuting country today, if not 50 or so years ago when so many of these rail lines were originally laid out), are not covered by train service. Have never been so covered.
Worse yet, perhaps, is that even if one drives 10 or more miles to catch a “nearby” train, there is usually no parking available. Or a waiting list of a year or more. And the only ways I can imagine towns grabbing more land for parking lots sound unpleasant indeed for many.
Mike91, I realize you were simply being your usual unpleasant (if of indeterminate chronological age) self by calling me an “old hack.” I also can’t say this is unbecoming of you, given how it perfectly encapsulates your measly attemots at a prose style. But still, your constant attempts to contrast youself as a “new” voice here, and thus of youthful energy, are just embarassing. You remain, however old you turn out to be, a mere whelp verbally. Perhaps someday you’ll be weaned, but every time I read your flailings I’m reassured that it ain’t happened yet on this site to you.
Mike91, I realize … blah blah blah”
I looked, but didn’t see you acknowledge where you misread the report. Your writing is so purple that meaning is ofton lost, so I must have missed it.
“Your writing is so purple that meaning is ofton lost…”
the universe is hardwired to smack down hubris!
I was a daily driver to the city for years, then the Rt. 3 traffic volume on the return trip became unbearable. I ascribe this to the buildup of Jersey City and surrounding areas. Anyway, we finally got the Manhattan direct, several years after our neighbors on the Morristown line after the community was stymied by typical Montclair politics,not being able to relocated a couple of apartment dwellers, and apparently DeCamp’s vociferous, self serving, objections. Now we have a train that can go 15 miles in just under an hour…not exactly the Tres Grand Vitesse, or even Metro North which can get you the better part of 50 miles in about the same timeframe, so there goes the “best mass transit system in the country” argument.
Proponents of the ARC tunnel should look to the problems and costs associated with Boston’s Big Dig. In summary, the project wasn’t even close on timing and budget. Then there is the Freedom Tower which is now being paid for by massive toll hikes. Anyone that doesn’t realize that we would have been saddled with monstrous expenses as a result of not hammering out something other than an open ended deal with the Feds is delusional.
So why don’t you cut and paste that, Mike?
Paz, I have to say, I really look forward to your clever and constantly-evolving avatars! When I check in every day, it’s almost like, Ooh! What will Paz think of Today??
So why don’t you cut and paste that, Mike?
Which? The rambling story about your own personal commute no one gives a fig about, or your irrelevant analogy to the Big Dig and Freedom Tower?
The issue here is not that there would be cost overruns. Of course there would be. The issue is that Governor Gas Tax lied about the decision on who would pay for them, in order to preserve a campaign promise.
the universe is hardwired to smack down hubris!
Know that from your own experience, ROC?
Hey Mike 91! Thanks for being so involved. You seem like such a nice person. New Jersey’s pride, Liberalism’s future. I wish you’d let us in on other things that will come true in 2030. It would really help my retirment portfolio to have a window into future times. Also, were you the one some years ago who promised we’d all be driving flying cars by now? I know it just wasn’t in a John Prine song.
I recently spent a few days in Seattle, where they have a light rail which is a bit longer than the distance from Montclair to NY. It costs $5.50 for a day pass, which allows you to get on and off as many times as you like in a day. It’s relatively new, goes through tunnels, and is underground when it hits downtown. It’s also being extended to cover more areas of the city. It’s full during rush hour. It’s brilliant. Also their ferries are $7.00 round trip for pedestrians.
I don’t know how the state of Washington paid for this, but it’s a wonderful amenity which increases the value of Seattle and all the stops on the line.
Why don’t we support something so civilized as this? Because guys like ROC, Deadeye & Cathar don’t want to pay anything in taxes which does not directly benefit them personally.
The Seattle Light Rail is a good example Kit.
Promised to be finished in 2006 for 1.78 billion. Turns out it won’t be finished until 2020 at a final cost of 15 billion. That trip you pay $5.50 for costs the taxpayer $7.13 to provide.
http://crosscut.com/blog/crosscut/19710/Sound-Transit-s-(un)progress-report-on-light-rail/
sounds great!
ROC,
My favorite quote was from another link within yours:
“Even if Sound Transit’s ridership projections somehow come true, light rail will still only carry about one percent of all daily trips. Worse, Sound Transit says two thirds of these riders will come from the existing bus system.
For example, Sound Transit forced King County Metro to eliminate Route #194, one of the county’s most popular bus routes. Sound Transit officials hope these displaced bus riders will be forced to shift to light rail.
The average cost for King County to operate a Metro bus is about $4 per passenger trip. The average cost for Sound Transit to operate light rail is $7.62 per passenger trip. So we are building a redundant system for billions in capital expenses that costs nearly twice as much to operate. ”
http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/opinion/light-rail-one-year-later-train-broken-promises
Not only that ROC, but much of Seattle’s transit is heavily subsidized by some huge corporations who call Seattle home. In downtown, all of the buses and trains are free. It helps to have Boeing and Microsoft as neighbors instead of Crocket’s Fish Fry and Sushi Hana.
ROC, the article’s 2 years old. From what I saw, ridership has increased, and certainly will continue to increase as it’s extended. And if it reduces the number of cars idling on the freeways at rush hour, it is doing what it’s supposed to do.
But your last sentence makes my point exactly: “That trip you pay $5.50 for costs the taxpayer $7.13 to provide.” You don’t believe mass transit should be subsidized. You think that all the costs of mass transit should be borne by those who use it. If we follow your logic, nothing would ever get built.
No I didn’t say that Kit. There is certainly a place for government subsidy. But Seattle’s system is well known as a boondoggle. AT $178 million per mile it’s one of the most expensive in the country – ever in history. What irks me the most, more than the fictitiously binary “argument” about whether subsidies should exist or not is the lying that goes on to justify them. It’s precisely like the rosy scenarios we’re promised locally which never materialize. If the voters were shown the real numbers behind the Seattle LIght Rail BEFORE it was constructed they never would have approved it. That’s how project end up 15 times over budget. Telling those lies is how you get LIght Rail boondoggles built and how you get streets “beautified” in Montclair.
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-344
“While the Secretary of Transportation and the governor of New Jersey held discussions on additional funding options, planning documents did not address the source of funding of potential cost growth for the project.”
No real agreement or documentation on who pays for cost overruns!
If costs adjustments looked like this:
“Over time, the cost estimates for the project increased from an initial estimate of $7.4 billion in 2006. In 2008 and 2010, FTA performed risk assessments and revised the cost estimate. FTA and NJT agreed upon a baseline cost estimate of $8.7 billion in 2009. After considering comments from NJT, which projected lower costs than FTA, FTA revised its estimate and issued a cost estimate of $9.8 billion to $12.4 billion in October 2010. As of April 2010, federal sources were expected to fund about half the cost, with the remainder divided between New Jersey Turnpike funds and the Port Authority.”
Why would anyone expect, even at half the overrun costs, the Governor to sign on! The estimate went up over 80% in 4 years.
hahahahahahahaha
No ROC’s not saying that, Kit. But since you want these nice big projects when no one honestly has the treasure, consider that it’s like you building a new home in Gled Ridge – a modest and typical 4 bedroom, center hall colonial, let’s say, 1/4 acre lot – and with overruns, union hiring, and “unforeseen” outlays, it comes in at a final cost of $15 million dollars. Sure it’ll keep some people employed for awhile, and yes, you’ll have a new home, but when will your kids and grandkids pay it off? Crazy you say? Who would do such a thing? Well, government for one. How many metaphorical $15 million homes can the government really get away with building before we turn into Greece?
All that being said. Again, I think at 14% of the total cost, is a bargain for NJ. Christie should just ask for that Government Approved figure to be enshrined in the contract & appropriation. I mean the GAO can’t have gotten it wrong, right, so why then would anyone doubt it? Make Obama put his money where his mouth is.
A big house owned by a family that cannot afford is not quite the same as building, maintaining and improving infrastructure, which is a critical component of our economy because people as well as goods need to be transported efficiently. We can argue about what should be built and how much it will cost, but updating transportations systems is not comparable to a personal expenditure, any more than an army would be. And I’m tired of hearing about Greece, maybe if the government had actually collected taxes instead of letting everyone be a scofflaw, they’d be in a less dire position.
Typos….sorry. No glasses. At work.
It’s not like “A big house owned by a family that cannot afford ” it’s more like a street beautification project that will raise the commercial property values (a critical component of our economy!) and the project will pay for itself!
In the end, two things are true: Christie lied in his justification for shutting the project down. What’s odd that all he had to be is truthful, there certainly are arguments about who should pay what.
Second: this has to be built eventually. Its just a fact. Ridership will continue to increase, and the tunnels are at capacity. The alternative is more ridership on the other, already crowded infrastructure like the Lincoln Tunnel. And those options have other disadvantages.
Well, ROC, I think we should leave South Park alone right now. But I agree that 14% is a bargain, and Christie could use this opportunity to negotiate a tough deal. The NJ housing market has to compete with Westchester and CT and NJT is already pretty crappy in comparison to Metro North.
“But I agree that 14% is a bargain, and Christie could use this opportunity to negotiate a tough deal.”
Negotiate? The Feds just issued a finding! 14%! Accept, accept I say…
(14% is total BS, I mean does it make sense?) But THEY said it. Use it for all it’s rhetorical worth. Christie should have gone to Washington today and said “I accept! I accept!”
I disagree that Seattle’s light rail is a boondoggle, ROC. It’s a vital system whose ridership will increase as it’s expanded. It’s worth the $7.13 that taxpayers kick in. I wish we had one here.
Now the Park St. beautification, that’s a boondoggle.
I agree, ROC. Highways are the job creators. And they use tons of asphalt, which will help the petroleum industry, which will help us all, just like their expensive commercials tell us all the time. The ones with smiling kids and flags.
“It’s a vital system whose ridership will increase as it’s expanded. ”
Perhaps, but so far it’s WAY below the targets used to financially justify the project.
The plan predicted 13 million riders in 2011 and they got 7.8 million a little over half.
None of that matters though right? Faith based logic is hard to dispute.
Both ROC & Kyle’s links are from 2010, not 2011. And Roc’s includes this sentence:
“Weekday boardings averaged 21,766 for the quarter, compared with 16,909 average weekday boardings during last quarter. Central Link will need to maintain this high rate of growth to meet the ambitious 2010 ridership target.”
It’s not faith based logic. It will finish over budget and past schedule: Name 3 infrastructure projects of this magnitude which came in under budget and on schedule. And in 2010, its ridership was increasing rapidly. From the looks of my recent visit, it must be continuing to increase. It was packed everytime I rode it, which included weekdays and the weekend.
Faith based logic is hard to dispute, I agree, ROC. This explains many things, from the Cup of Elijah right on through to the well documented unpopularity of compact fluorescent bulbs in the ROC household.
2012
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017171333_audit06.html
“State Auditor Brian Sonntag will take an independent look at how effectively Sound Transit is keeping its promises to the public, his staff confirmed on Thursday.”
Yes, ROC, it’s over budget, and late. But your last link, from 2010, was 21,766 weekday riders in a quarter. Now, in your 2012 link, “Current rail use is 38,400 boardings per weekday.”
I’d call that a healthy growth. You should read this stuff more carefully before you post it to make some kind of righteous political point. Talk about faith based logic.
Well it looks like NJ would have been responsible for any cost over runs.
Although this didn’t receive a lot of press>
http://www.politifact.com/new-jersey/statements/2012/apr/19/jennifer-beck/arc-tunnel-project-overruns-would-have-been-new-je/